Drive train noise and vibration

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
alcatraz
Posts: 2316
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

If you have an old wheel with a threaded axle you can use it to align the hanger without any tools. Cheap/old bikes all have this.

Flip the bike upside down.

Put the derailleur on the one but last gear, unscrew it and move it a bit towards the crank. No need to disconnect anything.

Thread the axle from the rear wheel onto the derailleur hanger (rear wheel non drive side) making sure you have at least 6+ mm of exposed threads into the hanger. Tighten it a tiny bit so the wheel doesn't have a lot of play.

So now you have a funny looking wheel hanging from your hanger.

Rotate both wheels so that the valve stems are in the same clock position. Get a tapemeasure and start measuring between the valve stems or to two spokes and taking the average.

Do it at 12, 3, 6, 9 o clock (always rotating both wheels so stems align).

With the skewer tightened properly and with gentle but firm nudges, bend the hanger by twisting the wheel to where the distance between them is the same.

Works a treat!

You could use a front wheel but I noticed my rear wheel has more axle sticking out. Make sure you don't just thread it half way.

/a

sennder
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

mattr wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:20 am
Can your local bike shop not do the hanger alignment? Rather than dropping $70 (!!!) on park tools.
Or are they useless?
Another thing that springs to mind. It's the mech straight?
After my previous experience with the local shop, I'm not too eager to visit there again. I actually ended up borrowing an alignment tool from a friend of a friend.

So the hanger wasn't too far out of alignment. ~6mm back to front, and ~5mm top to bottom. After getting both axes down to 2-3mm, the noise is still there. There's a rough droning/rattling on most of the cassette, with sharp rattling and vibrations on the 10th and 11th sprockets.

I've replaced the chain as well. It's hard to tell if it's the rear mech itself but it's possible. I'm going to accept defeat and take the bike to the shop (different shop this time).

--Sennder

by Weenie


sennder
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

alcatraz wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:04 am
If you have an old wheel with a threaded axle you can use it to align the hanger without any tools. Cheap/old bikes all have this.

/a
Thanks for the suggestion and the detailed step by step! Mattr did suggest this method earlier but sadly, I don't have any spare older rear wheels, and it seems that the derailleur hanger alignment is not the issue.

--Sennder

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MattMay
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:26 pm
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by MattMay

Wow you’ve had so much trouble with this bike it almost feels like the whole frame itself is tweaked a bit.

sennder
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

MattMay wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 1:26 am
Wow you’ve had so much trouble with this bike it almost feels like the whole frame itself is tweaked a bit.
Tell me about it. The bike is super comfortable and the best fit I've ever had on a road bike. The two noiseless rides I had on it were just amazing. But after all this hassle with the handlebars and then the headset, I almost regret building this bike.

I'm gonna give this one more shot. Hopefully, the shop will be able to isolate the source of the noise and fix it quickly (and cheaply).

--Sennder

GothicCastle
Posts: 242
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 1:52 am

by GothicCastle

sennder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:36 pm

So the hanger wasn't too far out of alignment. ~6mm back to front, and ~5mm top to bottom. After getting both axes down to 2-3mm, the noise is still there. There's a rough droning/rattling on most of the cassette, with sharp rattling and vibrations on the 10th and 11th sprockets.
It is difficult to diagnose over the internet, but it sounds like the chain is a little too short.

sennder
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

GothicCastle wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:26 pm
sennder wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:36 pm

So the hanger wasn't too far out of alignment. ~6mm back to front, and ~5mm top to bottom. After getting both axes down to 2-3mm, the noise is still there. There's a rough droning/rattling on most of the cassette, with sharp rattling and vibrations on the 10th and 11th sprockets.
It is difficult to diagnose over the internet, but it sounds like the chain is a little too short.
Diagnosing over the internet is definitely not the best way to go about it, especially without a video demonstrating the issue. Nevertheless, this thread has given me a wealth of knowledge.

As for the chain, when I first built the bike, I followed Shimano's guidelines and wrapped the chain around the big chainring and largest sprocket, without going through the rear mech. I then added three links to that length. However, in that configuration, the rear mech got completely stretched out. I had to add another couple of links to the chain to bring it back to normal.

In fact, with my current chain, if I adjust the B screw to get the top jockey wheel as close to the largest sprocket as possible, the chain actually ends up with some slack on the smallest sprocket and smaller ring. I had to use the B screw to add some slack, just like Calnago showed on his thread about ideal chain length.

I took the bike to the shop today. The mechanic there said that it was probably just the some rear derailleur adjustment that was off. I did mention that I went through all adjustments multiple times but I'm going to leave it to his expertise. Fingers crossed.

Thanks for your response!

alcatraz
Posts: 2316
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 11:19 am

by alcatraz

Maybe your dropouts aren't aligned or some weird frame issue like that.

I'd say the chain is one link too long if you have to use the B-screw to add tension.

Seems you don't have enough chain wrap capacity if you are maxing out at both ends of the gears. A solution could be to (keep the chain and) swap bottom derailleur pulley to something larger. 14-16t, whatever you can fit. That will give you bit of extra tension on small/small without sacrificing shift performance (b-screw too far in) or stretching the mech in big/big. Use low play steel bearing pulleys, avoid alloy ones if you are sensitive to noise. Suggest plastic.

The increased drive train efficiency is a bonus. :D

/a
Last edited by alcatraz on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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pdlpsher1
Posts: 2427
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

When inserting a chain pin, always insert it from the left side of the bike. This way the flush end of the pin is facing the center of the bike. You want the rough end of the pin to not hit and rub against the cog. I've had a chain skip every time it came upon the cassette. Due to the close spacing of the 11-speed cassette, the rough end of the pin can hit and run against the cog. By having the rough end face the other way there's no chance of rubbing.
Last edited by pdlpsher1 on Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

sennder
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

alcatraz wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:03 am
Maybe your dropouts aren't aligned or some weird frame issue like that.

I'd say the chain is one link too long if you have to use the B-screw to add tension.

Seems you don't have enough chain wrap capacity if you are maxing out at both ends of the gears. A solution could be to (keep the chain and) swap bottom derailleur pulleys to something larger. 14-16t, whatever you can fit. That will give you bit of extra tension on small/small without sacrificing shift performance (b-screw too far in) or stretching the mech in big/big. Use low play steel bearing pulleys, avoid alloy ones if you are sensitive to noise. Suggest plastic.

/a
Is it possible for dropouts to be misaligned in a carbon frame, especially one that's less than 4 month old one? I would assume that carbon is stiff enough that dropouts wouldn't go out of alignment that easily. I was very careful with the frame when I disassembled it for the "warranty replacement". I installed the plastic placeholders in the dropouts after removing the wheels.

I had to use the B screw just a tad bit (with the mech just 2-3mm lower than ideal) to get the tension correct. Calnago actually covered that very situation in his thread here. Also, the noise actually only started after the rebuild. I had the same chain length before and there was no noise then, so I'm quite sure that the chain is not the issue.

That's a very interesting solution! It makes perfect sense as well. I will look into options for the lower pulley. Thank you!

--Sennder

sennder
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 pm

by sennder

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:57 am
When inserting a chain pin, always insert it from the left side of the bike. This way the flush end of the pin is facing the center of the bike. You want to rough end of the pin to not hit and rub against the cog. I've had a chain skip every time it came upon the cassette. Due to the close spacing of the 11-speed cassette, the rough end of the pin can hit and run against the cog. By having the rough end face the other way there's no chance of rubbing.
That's a very good point. However, the dealer's manual for the chain actually says the opposite (left half of page 5). Is it possible that you pushed the pin in too far?

Nevertheless, I installed a new chain on the bike last week (CN-HG-701 again) which came with a quick link instead of the usual connector pin. I personally never minded the pin but I think this is a better solution. The Shimano quick link is very tight though. With a Sram 9 speed chain, I used to be able to grab the chain and pull the link shut. However, with this one, I had to apply my full body weight on the pedal with the wheel held in place to snap the link shut. The manual that came with the chain recommends using a pair of quick link pliers in he opposite direction to lock the link but I didn't have a pair at hand so I had to make do.

--Sennder

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pdlpsher1
Posts: 2427
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:09 pm
Location: CO

by pdlpsher1

sennder wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:56 am
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:57 am
When inserting a chain pin, always insert it from the left side of the bike. This way the flush end of the pin is facing the center of the bike. You want to rough end of the pin to not hit and rub against the cog. I've had a chain skip every time it came upon the cassette. Due to the close spacing of the 11-speed cassette, the rough end of the pin can hit and run against the cog. By having the rough end face the other way there's no chance of rubbing.
That's a very good point. However, the dealer's manual for the chain actually says the opposite (left half of page 5). Is it possible that you pushed the pin in too far?

Nevertheless, I installed a new chain on the bike last week (CN-HG-701 again) which came with a quick link instead of the usual connector pin. I personally never minded the pin but I think this is a better solution. The Shimano quick link is very tight though. With a Sram 9 speed chain, I used to be able to grab the chain and pull the link shut. However, with this one, I had to apply my full body weight on the pedal with the wheel held in place to snap the link shut. The manual that came with the chain recommends using a pair of quick link pliers in he opposite direction to lock the link but I didn't have a pair at hand so I had to make do.

--Sennder
Thanks for the link to the manual. I don't know the reason why Shimano wants the pin to be inserted from the right side. But if you look at the illustration on page 6 it says it's normal for the pin to protrude slightly on the rough end. In the past I have followed Shimano's instruction and end up with a skipping chain as the rough end of the pin makes contact with the next cog.

Yes, the Shimano quick link is a much better solution. I've been using it since it came out and loving it. Yes the force to open/close is much higher than, say a KMC quick link. I bought a Park took to make opening and closing easier. All new Dura Ace chains now come with one quick link. I think Ultegra chains still come with two pins.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Ultegra chain’s come with the quick link too. For Shimano you push the pin in from the drive side, then break off the guide with pliers. It’s a little different than Campy, but ends up the same, with a little protrusion on the drive side.
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Finx
Posts: 67
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 1:14 am

by Finx

I seem to have resolved my chain noise issue (mostly). I believe it came down to a slightly tweaked/twisted rear derailleur cage.

I was at my wits end. Everything was perfect on the setup, but there was just this raspy rattling noise on the 50 in front, and the bottom half of the cassette in the back.

Replacing the derailleur has made it about 90% quieter. There is still a small amount of noise in those same geares, but it's only possible to hear it when the bike is in the stand. Wind noise drowns in out when riding on the road.

Theologian
Posts: 46
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:34 am

by Theologian

Finx wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:14 pm
I have two other Shimano 11spd equipped bikes that do not have this priblem. One is a BMC Granfondo GF01. The other is a Ti Volagi Viaje. They both run like a dream.
Which Shimano groupset do you have on the Volagi Ti. I'm installing the r8000 and trying to make it as quiet as possible. Thanks

by Weenie


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