Campagnolo 12-Speed

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

@Midge: It does make a difference with the 11sp stuff. For instance, if I use a std crank 39/53 the optimal chainlength is 110links. If I use a 36/52 crank, the optimal chainlength is 108links. But with the new 12sp derailleur, it’s 110links regardless of chainring combos used or which cassette you use (there’s only two right now), at least according to Campy’s docs. I’m anxious to play with a 12sp group for real to see how it all works, in comparison to the newer Shimano derailleurs. All this stuff is really the reason I started that thread on Optimal Chainlength - It’s a New Day.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ


User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

beeatnik wrote:... And, yet, based on the flickas posted here, the people who worked on that bike haven't cracked a Campagnolo manual since the introduction of C Record. Based on my experiences with 2015 Revolution I'm beginning to believe that the only competent Campagnolo wrenches are single client concerns, ie, home mechanics.
Unfortunately, there’s a certain amount of truth to that. It’s not limited to Campy, since I’ve seen poorly set up Shimano setups as well. But Shimano is just so much more common in bike shops, it’s more likely that there will be at least someone in the shop who knows a little more than the new kid.

And it’s not just Campy. But the shop in reference is purported to be one of the “Premium Colnago Resellers” in France, yet they didn’t know that the C59 has an internal continuous guide through the top tube to accommodate an uninterrupted cable housing run (no stops). Hmmm.

I once tried to get the designation “Campy Pro Shop” status for myself since I don’t know any more competent Campy expert in town than myself (all modesty aside for a moment). But since I don’t have a brick and mortar storefront, that was a no go. I suspect that shop in France probably has “Campy Pro Shop” status. It should be revoked.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Pierrotdu37
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:16 pm
Location: France

by Pierrotdu37

on my dealer's site one of his previous SR setup:

Image

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

@Pierrotdu37: if you can’t see what’s wrong with your setup from this pic below then you don’t know what I’m looking at. Nothing against you, as you’re not the mechanic. But if you show this pic to the mechanic, and he scratches his head saying “yeah, so what?”, then I don’t know what you can do except find someone else.
Pierrotdu37 wrote: 50X11 Lat View:
Image
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Pierrotdu37
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:16 pm
Location: France

by Pierrotdu37

From all the previous post, i guess i'll have to find someone else, yes. But it's quite annoying to have to pay someone else who probably haven't seen a single Record 12v before, and might not be better than the first mechanic.
Oh and I've recounted the links with a litlle piece of tape on the first link, to be precise, and there are 55 links, not 56, my bad...
If you get this kind of job from a "Premium Colnago reseller" with a good connection with Campa France , what to expect from the "average Joe" mechanics of my area? :(

BTW my English isn't probably very accurate concerning mechanics/technology, sorry....
I think I already told it in this thread but the mechanic told me that due to a shortage of Campa Record parts From Campagnolo, they sent the groupset with a SR cassette, a SR chain and SR bearings (don't know exactly the name) for the BB, at no extra charge. True story or B.S?

Can't really check by myself, but no sign of SR on the center of the cassette, but my chain is exactly like the one from the C60 above full SR setup, with R12 on the outer plate. No sign of SR, if this exists?
Last edited by Pierrotdu37 on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

Ok, so it at least sounds like the chainlength is correct then. If so, this is a really easy fix I think. You can do it yourself. Just loosen off the bolt that is holding on the “joint” to your original derailleur hanger. As soon as it’s loosened a smidge, I would expect the entire derailleur to pivot forward since it now has the chain pulling on it a bit. This will allow the stop on the derailleur to butt up against the stop on the hanger. From your posts I realize you may not understand what I’m talking about but it’s really only a five minute job to go from where you are now to a perfect setup. Are you close to the shop you took it to? Give them another shot at it. Everyone has to learn sometime and since they’re the premiere shop in the area, they should be able to rectify it quite easily I would hope. Then it’s just a matter of adjusting the b-screw properly. I suspect the mechanic has not taken the time to familiarize himself with the idiosyncrasies of the new design, but it seems almost identical to the new Shimano derailleurs. I don’t know how sensitive that B-screw is on the Campy derailleur yet, but on the shimano derailleurs that b-screw can take up a lot of slack in the chain, so don’t be alarmed if when the derailleur pivots forward the chain seems slack. Adjusting the b-screw in the next step should fix that.
And your english is ok. I just hope you can make sense of what I’m saying. If it’s unclear, just ask. There are no dumb questions. Just dumb people.
Last edited by Calnago on Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

Pierrotdu37
Posts: 39
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:16 pm
Location: France

by Pierrotdu37

He told me to bring it back in 2 weeks because the cables will normally loosen and he'll have to re-check the settings.
The guy is kind actually and looks honest. But I'd have preferred the right job in first place.

Concerning your explanations a small sketch with an arrow at the right place might help, thanks :beerchug:

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

There is very little stretch with Campy cables in my experience. Some bedding of the housings can take place and relaxation of the bends etc will make things a bit better but what you’ve got going here is totally separate from a “followup tuneup”. At least that’s what the pics are indicating to me. But yes, its better to help the mechanic learn from his mistake so that he can set future setups perfectly first time.
I will sketch something out for you or provide some more explanatory pics. I realize if you don’t work on them you’re probably still in the dark about what I’m even talking about perhaps.
By the way, certainly not implying that your mechanic or shop is being “dishonest”. It’s just that when something new comes out, it seems that the most common way of learning is by just jumping right in with the install, rip it out of the packaging, slap it on the bike, f’ing it up, then as a last resort have a quick peek at the actual instructions or technical docs when/if things don’t work very well.
But please, do educate him on the C59 rear brake cable routing because as a Premiere Colnago Reseller, there’s really just no excuse for that faux pas.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

User avatar
zank
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:19 am
Location: Sutton, MA USA
Contact:

by zank

Can we get a clear picture with the wheel out of the backside of the link showing where the stop is in relation to the hanger tab? I'm just wondering if the radius at the base of the tab is a little too generous and it is in fact making contact but not allowing the link to swing down low enough.
Last edited by zank on Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
zank
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:19 am
Location: Sutton, MA USA
Contact:

by zank

Also, regarding chain length (and to piggyback on Cal's awesome chain length thread), I still find it odd that people don't use the designer's instructions. And I find it odd that it's hard for some people to believe that the correct chainlength for this new group has nothing to do with gear combos.

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

deleted
Last edited by Calnago on Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

zank wrote:Also, regarding chain length (and to piggyback on Cal's awesome chain length thread), I still find it odd that people don't use the designer's instructions. And I find it odd that it's hard for some people to believe that the correct chainlength for this new group has nothing to do with gear combos.
Thanks @zank, for the comment re the chainlength thread, and as a result of all that, I can’t wait to get my hands dirty in a similar exercise with the new Campy derailleur, because unlike Shimano, Campy is indeed recommending 110 links for ALL their 12sp chainring and cassette options (asssuming chainstay lengths in the 405-415mm range). If you can set things up optimally in all cases with that one chainlength, then awesome and I’m all over it, but as I found out with Shimano, there were cases where that wasn’t quite so. But that may have been just when you jump up to their monster cassette (11/34) and using the GS (long cage) derailleur. At this point, Campy is talking about largest rear cog differences of only 3 teeth (29-32), so perhaps it is possible with the new derailleur to set things up perfectly with all combos. You can bet I will confirm one way or another when I get the chance.
Last edited by Calnago on Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ

User avatar
zank
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:19 am
Location: Sutton, MA USA
Contact:

by zank

You can see the stop in this pic. The black ano looks different than the carbon hanger. It still appears to me that the stop is in contact with the tab.

Image

User avatar
Calnago
Posts: 8608
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2010 9:14 pm

by Calnago

I still can’t see it against the hook of the hanger on the bike. It’s on the underside of what we can see, right? As such, I can’t tell if there’s a gap there or not. You’re not looking at the stop where the b-screw is are you?..., because that’s at the derailleur side of things. I’m talking about the opposite side of the “joint”, the side that attaches to the derailleur hanger on the bike.

@Perriotdu37: Here's what we're trying to see, using the equivalent Shimano example... first a diagram from the Shimano docs... but the idea is the same...
Image

Next, if you get a pic like @Zanc suggests of the backside, without the wheel in it, like below, that would be great...
Image
As an aside, the pic above shows a gap between the stop and the derailleur hanger, which goes against the Shimano specs in the diagram above it. But this is a little mod that has be done in some cases where rear wheel removal is an issue. It is not applicable in this case.
Last edited by Calnago on Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Colnago C64 - The Naked Build; Colnago C60 - PR99; Trek Koppenberg - Where Emonda and Domane Meet;
Unlinked Builds (searchable): Colnago C59 - 5 Years Later; Trek Emonda SL Campagnolo SR; Special Colnago EPQ


User avatar
zank
Posts: 376
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 5:19 am
Location: Sutton, MA USA
Contact:

by zank

I know there's no way to really know until he gets a better pic, but I'm talking about here...

Image

Post Reply