Modern steel build recommendations

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.

What steel for 12sp Campagnolo record

Cinelli Vigorelli (700 Euro) (S)
2
4%
Ritchey Road Logic (1300 Euro but actual less)
18
34%
Bottecchia leggendaria (1600 Euro)
4
8%
Wilier Superleggera (2300 Euro)
2
4%
Custom Steel (Stelbel?)
27
51%
 
Total votes: 53

kwakekeham
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:03 pm

by kwakekeham

Hi all,

I've wanted to do a modern retro build, but I also have zero interest in full restoration or period percise, or eroica. What I really want is the Wilier Supperleggera in the Ramato (copper) with a fully Campagnolo 12 speed (not available yet, especially not on that bike) and likely Shamal Mille wheels. So it's pretty close to Wiliers existing offering except it's the new 12 speed.

Normally I have access to some industry discounts, but doesn't seem available for some on the list, so the way for me to do this cost effectively is primarily a frame purchase -- but I'm finding it a little hilarious about pricing of steel frames, especially non-custom with very little to distinguise mechanical properties (this tube has slightly different double butted dimension, or enough vanadium to change the yield point which it'll never see, etc). However, cromovelato and the classic recognizable look of the Wilier matches so well with the lightweight aluminum wheels and new groupset. I think a lot of frames are going to look out of place with black modern groups otherwise.

I have my carbon bike with full EPS so I'm happy enough in that area minus some BB woes.

So considering alternatives. The goal is retro sleek looks but modern performance. I like the Cinelli Vigorelli from a cost and retro 80/90's styling perspective, but it's Crit Geometry seems odd to match up to my 52 cm Trek Madone H2 (2012) -- which is already more comparable to some 54's. The Cinelli would be on a small size based on comparing frames. The rest seem more reasonable in terms of geometry.

Road logic leaves the retro styling I was after but not the styling box. The Bottecchia and Wilier are all style, but really finding 2000 Euro hard to swallow.

Any other options out there? Suck it up and pay full price on a Wilier Superleggera?

morrisond
Posts: 787
Joined: Thu Mar 25, 2004 8:34 pm

by morrisond

Yes. I don't know where you are buit if you are in North America you could try and buy it out of Europe where you might get it cheaper.

If you like the style and paint job you will find that almost impossible to beat on price if you go full custom.

Does the GEO fit you? Then that is another plus.

It is a fantastic looking bike.

The only reason in my view would be to go custom is to get something with a direct mount rear hangar - as the RD looks really goofy in my eyes with that extra part. But that is just my bike OCD and why I'm going full custom for my 12sp bike.

However if I didn't have another Rim brake Mech shift bike that Willier would be at the top of my list.

I assume you saw this article - https://granfondo-cycling.com/review-be ... e-of-2018/

by Weenie


Marin
Posts: 3138
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

Get Barco to build you one? The make the Cinelly XCR...

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nickf
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm

by nickf

Get a Gunnar built or even a Rock Lobster. There is really nice custom steel out there even if your on a budget. I rather spend my money on a custom steel bike even if it doesn't have a big brand plastered on the downtube.

bremerradkurier
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 pm

by bremerradkurier

Planet X's Holdsworth steel frame looks like a decent option for the price.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/FRHOCO/ho ... n-frameset

KarlC
Posts: 732
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:08 am
Location: San Diego Ca USA

by KarlC

You may have see this, looks cool but I dont really like teh 4 arm crank on it....

https://granfondo-cycling.com/wilier-su ... sl-review/


Lots of cool options out there, I got my Master X lite used for a great deal and reworked it, now I will be changing it to Campy Record 11

Image20170826_185116_resized (002)

User avatar
nickf
Posts: 611
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:34 pm

by nickf

A little off topic but whats with Italian steel paint quality? It's just never great in my experience. One of the guys I ride with has the exact bike pictured above. Rusing around the chrome and the paint around the shore lines by the lugs just isn't clean and smooth. Lazy masking job. Painted tip on the chrome chainstay flaking off. Same goes for Tommasinni, really bad attention to detail.

But for a fast steel bike opt for a semi sloping geo and carbon fork. Will have a nice snap to it and sill have the comfort of steel still intact. My 54cm traditional geo (long and low), single oversized frame, steel fork, just feels lazy. It's just sitting in the attic at the moment half built.

kwakekeham
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 8:03 pm

by kwakekeham

The Cinelli is the only one I have had concerns on for geometry. I've yet to put it all together with the right dimensions in the bike compare spreadsheet that's online. The hanger issue I can see. I've heard that stiffness can affect performance, but I've only heard this for the Shimano stuff because the 12sp Campagnolo is barely in the wild yet.

Barco looks like a good potential option. I really want this to be a unique build, so the cromovelato look or something else striking works and It looks like they've done some custom work with the Cromovelato look. The stainless look is why I put Stelbel as an option as well. So I might mull the custom idea over some more.

Quite familiar with the Wilier stuff, it's just on the top end of pricing for non-custom frame but it's super unique. Hadn't seen the gran fondo article. Thanks to those who mentioned it.

The holdsworth is near the Cinelli price but it just doesn't stand out for me in terms of aesthetics, and I guess this is more a vanity project that I have the option to have rather than my one and only bike. Keeping price under control is still important to me on this, but I'm starting to lean to wait a little longer or go custom to get that uniqueness.

Having not had an italian painted bike, can't comment on the quality. I've seen many vintage italian bikes and it's hard to know if all the paint chipping / cracking is just age / lack of care or if it's something else. The cromovelato is like a clear coat over chrome, so chroming quality might play a big part and I suspect older frames had a very hard time adhering to the chrome which is why it can flake at the edges maybe. I've looked into restoration of an original Triestina Ramata as an option and finding one in okay condition (1000 - 1500 euro normally), there is frame spacing to deal with for modern wheels, and a restoration job on the paint varies wildly depending on if the chrome is okay, if it's not it easily 1200 - 1500 euro to do a restoration, but I've only found two places that have done this. Hasselfactor = buy Superleggera frameset then, but I'm still struggling with the frameset price tag of 2300.

KarlC
Posts: 732
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:08 am
Location: San Diego Ca USA

by KarlC

Have you looked at the Tommasini Tecno they have some pretty cool colors

Here is a nice one.....

viewtopic.php?t=143355

Image

.

glam2deaf
Posts: 706
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:36 am

by glam2deaf

Just adding my two cents. The Road Logic is probably the best bike I've ever owned. It's not the lightest, but the handling is superb.

User avatar
Wingnut
Posts: 1909
Joined: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:41 am

by Wingnut

I would go with the Stelbel or a Tommasini.
"It's not the destination...it's the ride!"

xcnick
Posts: 150
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:27 pm

by xcnick

glam2deaf wrote: ↑
Fri May 18, 2018 1:25 am
Just adding my two cents. The Road Logic is probably the best bike I've ever owned. It's not the lightest, but the handling is superb.
Same here.

Bigger Gear
Posts: 403
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:58 pm
Location: Wet coast, Canada

by Bigger Gear

If you want something Italian I think the Stelbel is super nice. But how about considering something from Condor like the Acciaio or the Super Acciaio? Only downside IMO is they both use integrated HS designs. I prefer pressed-in cups especially on a steel frame.

In terms of paint, my understanding is that environmental laws in Italy do not allow the same paints to be used as in North America or the UK. The paints they use are more "brittle". Not sure of my source for this info, something I picked up along the way I guess.

morganb
Posts: 616
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:30 pm

by morganb

nickf wrote: ↑
Thu May 17, 2018 3:27 pm
Get a Gunnar built or even a Rock Lobster. There is really nice custom steel out there even if your on a budget. I rather spend my money on a custom steel bike even if it doesn't have a big brand plastered on the downtube.
I second this, both of these are just as good if not better than the big name builders that cost twice as much of not more. My Gunnar Roadie also came in at 1550g with thick paint and an integrated derailleur hanger and rides superbly.

bilwit
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

If I got caught with the modern steel (or Ti) bug (again) then I would go custom.. and it would have to have internal cable routing for brakes AND shifting (if I went with mechanical groupset). The retro-turned-modern look is cool but there's something about the aesthetic of having a truly modern "classic" bike... now if only someone made an OEM direct mount carbon fork, then we'd really get to see a full on modern rim brake "classic" custom setup

by Weenie


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