Is This As Good As Bikes Will Get? (besides braking)

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

dcorn wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:07 pm

Cool, and that has nothing to do with propelling the bike forward.
It’s fatigue and energy saved, which helps you propel your bike forward longer. For me, electronic shifting has been incredible on longer rides where my hands would feel dead after 115mi and 12000ft of climbing. That’s hundreds, sometimes around a thousand shifts.

by Weenie


beanbiken
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Location: Great Southern Land

by beanbiken

wheelbuilder wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:58 pm
Can we avoid bringing e-bikes into this? They ruin every thread. I will never believe (regardless of circumstances), that an e-bike has any relation to cycling.
Agree totally. E-bikes have there place as a mode of transport. I don't see how they are relevant to our pursuit of sport, adrenaline & fittnes.

BB
BB

Coffee & carbon

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

beanbiken wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:31 am
wheelbuilder wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:58 pm
Can we avoid bringing e-bikes into this? They ruin every thread. I will never believe (regardless of circumstances), that an e-bike has any relation to cycling.
Agree totally. E-bikes have there place as a mode of transport. I don't see how they are relevant to our pursuit of sport, adrenaline & fittnes.

BB
Super capacitors would start with zero charge and only be able to store X watt-hours worth of energy...an exceeding small amount. Sort of like a car that has an ICE generator, no transmission and an electric motor...the wheels are propelled by electricity alone. The bicycle would be propelled by an electric motor, but 100% of the watts still come from pedaling. It's an interesting thought experiment which sort of allows the infinite gearing / ERG concept, thought electric motors with single gear ratios still have torque/power curves.

Shrike
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by Shrike

Agree with Tobin there on the electronic shifting. It definitely reduces fatigue. Tapping a lever or button is less work than the varying length of lever throws. You notice it (appreciate it?) most when in a hole of course.

Don't agree with this though. Find this line of reasoning to be myopic and trite.
beanbiken wrote:
wheelbuilder wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:58 pm
Can we avoid bringing e-bikes into this? They ruin every thread. I will never believe (regardless of circumstances), that an e-bike has any relation to cycling.
E-bikes have there place as a mode of transport. I don't see how they are relevant to our pursuit of sport, adrenaline & fittnes.

BB
Watts are watts. If your FTP is 300 on a bicycle, it will also be 300 on that same bicycle fitted with power assistance. The only difference is that you would be capable of going faster hence increasing adrenaline. It has no bearing on fitness. The 'pursuit of sport' is trite. Meaningless. If anything eBikes are precisely in the spirit of that - opening sport up to more people.

Consider this - two athletes, different FTP/power profiles. What better way way to get them to train together than power assisted bikes. eBikes can go from consumer fodder to the greatest training tools competitive cyclists could wish for. Or couples who train together, like myself and the missus. We play certain pedal play and hound and hare games due to our differences - but an eBike (not in its current form, as they're at best on hills due to regulations) could mean we could go out and smash intervals together, long 20 min, 30min threshold and SST work. That would be amazing for us.

I haven't ridden an eBike, the tech is still in its infancy for what I would be looking for. Maybe 5 to 10 years they'll be sub 8kg and integrated with workout tech/partners.

sawyer
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by sawyer

bilwit wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:40 pm
sawyer wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:23 pm
bilwit wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:20 pm
It's still pretty hard to get "stock" bikes down to 6.8kg without getting into the boutique componentry. I think once something like graphene becomes affordable (or whatever else is created in the future that's a better alternative to straight up carbon fibre), normal road bikes will start to look like TT frames -- we're already headed that direction with aero bikes, the weight issue is the only thing that's stopping them from taking over completely.
Not if you're on tubular wheels. It's very easy.

Pretty much any combo of (!) pro level frame (2) top end group (3) any "normal" weight 30-50mm carbon tubular wheelset will give you a bike in the 6.3 - 6.8 ish weight range

Once you're on clinchers there is a 200g odd penalty so you have to choose light to hit 6.8
not so sure about that, I agree that we're slowly getting to that point but nearly every pro bike previewed on GCN is well over 6.8kg by 500g or more a lot of the times, especially the "aero" frames
Often those bikes are weighed with computer/power meter, on training wheels, large sizes, alu bars, mid-range saddle etc. etc. WWs is a much more reliable source of weights and specification, and you just have to look at the pro builds here to get an idea of how "easy" it is to be in the 6.Xkg range

It's just arithmetic that a frame and fork weight of 1100-1300g, then a group at around 2000g, and a wheelset at 1200g odd, plus all the rest (if it's high end and chosen with an eye on weight, but non-boutique) gets you to the 6.Xkg range more often than not.
----------------------------------------
Stiff, Light, Aero - Pick Three!! :thumbup:

mattr
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by mattr

Yeah, comparing the pro bikes as an example of what you can do with off the shelf parts is really a hiding to nothing.
Many of them aren't truely "off the shelf" for starters.

Any half way decent frame/wheels/finishing kit selected with half an eye on the weight combined with one of the top couple of groups from any manufacturer should be (at the very least) under 7 kilos. Built it with D-A/Record/Red and it'd be pretty much guaranteed to be under the UCI limit.

Stickman
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Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:58 am

by Stickman

bilwit wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:40 pm
not so sure about that, I agree that we're slowly getting to that point but nearly every pro bike previewed on GCN is well over 6.8kg by 500g or more a lot of the times, especially the "aero" frames
Yep, 7.1 - 7.2kg seemed the average in GCN's latest video from Dubai:


Image


[YouTube]https://youtu.be/daKQE965uyI[/YouTube]

aqualelaki
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Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:12 pm

by aqualelaki

Shrike wrote:Far too large a focus this era on piggybacking on whatever material science developments hit the market and it's debatable how successful that has been ultimately.

The next big leap in performance comes from 'infinite' automatic gearing with machine learning. That would have the largest increase in speed gains for time trialists or breakaway artists on rolling terrain. The machine learning would be multi pronged - it's looking at the terrain, initially using GPS, but will be more accurate if it's been on that course before. Then it's looking at your power and cadence and learning what works best for you on that particular gradient/surface smoothness. On top of that it's looking at your current fatigue levels and basing the gearing and cadence targets in relation to that again, and on top of that, the wind and temperature conditions.

The tech for the machine learning to do that is already here, in fact that's quite a basic affair these days. Once 'infinite' gears get sussed the penny will drop and machine learning will drop right after it. No point doing it before as gear changes aren't currently nuanced enough to take the best out of a rider on anything but a flat course.
Image

bremerradkurier
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by bremerradkurier

beanbiken wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:31 am
wheelbuilder wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:58 pm
Can we avoid bringing e-bikes into this? They ruin every thread. I will never believe (regardless of circumstances), that an e-bike has any relation to cycling.
Agree totally. E-bikes have there place as a mode of transport. I don't see how they are relevant to our pursuit of sport, adrenaline & fittnes.

BB
I could see them being useful for motorpacing, sprint leadout training, or prerunning criterium or cyclocross courses at race speeds without exhausting yourself.

aqualelaki
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by aqualelaki

wheelbuilder wrote:I think for me, I am at a point where I don't feel like hunting for the latest and greatest anymore? I'm in my fifties, happy with my fitness, very happy with the performance of my bike........could not ask for more. It's got all the high end components I lusted after, and is what most would consider a damn nice bike. I feel pretty damn satisfied. Rim brakes and all.
Pretty well said. I'm in the same boat as you are. I currently have 3 bikes now. Happy with all of them. I'm a technologist so reading what's new in cycling industry and so on is always interesting to me. But all I care now is keep being healthy and have time to ride my bikes.

aqualelaki
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Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 7:12 pm

by aqualelaki

dcorn wrote:
pdlpsher1 wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:40 pm
I believe the next big step is having a motor on the bike. A lot of people will resist it but eventually they will cave in. The technologies on batteries and motors will improve to the point that there will be mass adoption at some point. It's a scary thought isn't it.
That's called a moped or motorcycle. In my mind, it's pointless to start racing e-bikes because if everyone has the same power-assist, it still comes down to how much power the rider can put out compared to the competitors. So the only reason to have the assist is to increase the speed of the race, which just adds danger.

Race bicycles, race motorcycles. Start an electric version of motocross or motoGP like Formula E has done with car racing. But there is no reason to combine electric power and human power in one racing series.


Unless I'm commuting, I'll have no reason to ever buy a bike with a motor. I bike for exercise, fun, and a little competition with friends. If I want to get somewhere quickly and efficiently, I'll just buy a motorcycle or scooter or whatever. Why do I even need to pedal if it's just for transportation?
There is always a technology improvement for e-bikes. I think the room for that is big. But I doubt there will ever be competition for e-bikes.

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Lelandjt
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by Lelandjt

Shrike wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:41 am
we could go out and smash intervals together, long 20 min, 30min threshold and SST work. That would be amazing for us.
Try a tandem. My girlfriend and I love going for fast tandem rides and hunting Strava KOMs, mostly to see if we can beat the times I do on my single bike.

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pdlpsher1
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by pdlpsher1

I'm a tandem rider here as well and we love it. Speaking of tandem and eBikes, there are some off-the-shelves tandems with motors. And many tandem teams are adding motors to their bikes and reporting back the numerous postive benefits of having a motor assist. I also wish I could have a motor on my tandem but I really don't want huge assissts. Big motors means a heavier tandem and special requirements on braking and wheels, etc.

Using myself as an example, our tandem rides range between 25mi to 50mi, with 3,000' of climbing as the ceiling for a hilly ride. Imagine if we had a motor assist....we could be doing 60mi. rides with 5,000' of climbing, and explore roads that we may never do if we didnt' have a motor. I believe I will get the same amount of workout but the benefit being that it's more fun- more roads to explore at a higher avearage speed. Instead of averaging 15 or 16mph we could average 18 or 19mph.

I know it's hard for many people at accept it but eBike is truly the next natural progression on the bicycle as we know now. Everything on an existing bike is already good enough and reaching the point of diminishing returns as we hit physical barriers on material properties/science.

bremerradkurier
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Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:18 pm

by bremerradkurier

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:28 pm
I'm a tandem rider here as well and we love it. Speaking of tandem and eBikes, there are some off-the-shelves tandems with motors. And many tandem teams are adding motors to their bikes and reporting back the numerous postive benefits of having a motor assist. I also wish I could have a motor on my tandem but I really don't want huge assissts. Big motors means a heavier tandem and special requirements on braking and wheels, etc.

Using myself as an example, our tandem rides range between 25mi to 50mi, with 3,000' of climbing as the ceiling for a hilly ride. Imagine if we had a motor assist....we could be doing 60mi. rides with 5,000' of climbing, and explore roads that we may never do if we didnt' have a motor. I believe I will get the same amount of workout but the benefit being that it's more fun- more roads to explore at a higher avearage speed. Instead of averaging 15 or 16mph we could average 18 or 19mph.

I know it's hard for many people at accept it but eBike is truly the next natural progression on the bicycle as we know now. Everything on an existing bike is already good enough and reaching the point of diminishing returns as we hit physical barriers on material properties/science.

Seems like regenerative braking on a descending e-tandem going to the battery pack could be advantageous as well.

by Weenie


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themidge
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by themidge

aqualelaki wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:12 pm
wheelbuilder wrote:I think for me, I am at a point where I don't feel like hunting for the latest and greatest anymore? I'm in my fifties, happy with my fitness, very happy with the performance of my bike........could not ask for more. It's got all the high end components I lusted after, and is what most would consider a damn nice bike. I feel pretty damn satisfied. Rim brakes and all.
Pretty well said. I'm in the same boat as you are. I currently have 3 bikes now. Happy with all of them. I'm a technologist so reading what's new in cycling industry and so on is always interesting to me. But all I care now is keep being healthy and have time to ride my bikes.
I just turned 16 and I feel like this too! The age or supposed 'coolness' of bike parts doesn't matter to me at all. Whenever I upgrade something on my bikes it's for performance reasons (and aesthetics, of course :D ). If 'old tech' still works then why change it?

Disc brakes: Since the invention of the road bicycle, gears arrived pretty quickly on the scene didn't they? That's because they make a huge difference to what is possible on a bike. How long has it taken for disc brakes to arrive? Hmm? It's not new tech either, disc brakes (and their evolutions) have been on cars and motorbikes for decades.

E-bikes: Is not the whole point of riding a bike to enjoy going as fast (or as slow) as you like through your own effort. If you enjoy greater speed, get fitter or buy a motorbike.

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