Improving the pedal stroke

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

wassertreter wrote:I see where you're coming from, but the weekly time and effort I'm able to put in is a constant. I just want to get the best out of it.


This is a common issue many who have other commitments (read: a normal life) have to face. What you can do with the time you have is adhere to a good training program. A perfect pedal stroke, pedalling in circles... whatever... is most likely NOT the thing which is holding you back. And wasting time trying to obtain something which looks good rather than producing results will only delay this.

A reason why so many pros etc look to have such a smooth pedal stroke is this:- any repeated action will result in the neural pathways forming an optimum pattern for the firing of motor neurones for the required muscles. So the more you do something the better you get at it (surprise surprise). And as mentioned above it only looks smooth - the actual power is still being applied on the downstroke.

In some case a small amount of negative torque is found on the upstroke, this however, was found to be consistent with the expected weight of the limb (the muscles on the the non-working side are relaxed). Cycling is unique to other sports in that the is no eccentric load of the muscles (technically there is a tiny tiny bit but hardly any compared to running), all the relevant force is concentric.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

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devinci
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by devinci

wassertreter wrote:
devinci wrote:IMO "having a smooth pedaling" or "pedaling circle" is another way for lazy people to try and find a magic way to improve their power without putting in the effort.

I see where you're coming from, but the weekly time and effort I'm able to put in is a constant. I just want to get the best out of it.


Well dont waste your time trying to improve your pedal stroke. Use your time to ride more or harder or both. Then use your time to recover properly, something that takes time and dedication

EnglishRichie
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:44 pm

by EnglishRichie

Tapeworm wrote:
EnglishRichie wrote:This is what I use to improve my pedal stroke, and to go faser !!

http://vista-bikes.com/magicx.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In the future all pedals will be like this, probably !


Magic pedals huh? Oh dear.

I have some magic beans for sale too.


Polite Notice:

Please dont try to be a smart arse, if you dont understand how or why they work at least make an effort to know why they have been brought to market.

I was very sceptical myself after having used many brands of clipless pedals ever since they first came on the market, '86 ish ??

I done myself a hugh favour by satisfying my own cusiosity and I bought a pair, 4 years later they are on all 3 of my bikes and I've no intentions of changing.

Dont get me wrong, they are not perfect and a have a few things that need to be improved but they have acheived exactely what the designer had set out to accomplish.

I would love to hear back from you once YOU have tried them, go on, I dare yah !

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

So apart from your amazing anecdote is there any real data? The site mentions a study? Not to mention that last time I checked the lever arm and moment of inertia were no reasons why power production is limited.

Beside I would prefer to use power cranks, their magic powers promise way more performance increase :roll:
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

EnglishRichie
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:44 pm

by EnglishRichie

Tapeworm wrote:So apart from your amazing anecdote is there any real data? The site mentions a study? Not to mention that last time I checked the lever arm and moment of inertia were no reasons why power production is limited.

Beside I would prefer to use power cranks, their magic powers promise way more performance increase :roll:


Yes there is "real" data, its not on their website for whatever reason but when I asked for more "conclusive" information I was emailed a comprehensive pdf document which then promted me to "give 'em a try", glad I did.

Dont get the wrong impression you're not going to be the fasted in your Sunday club ride, unless you are already, but the increase in power is noticeable even if very slight. But heck, people pay €€€€€€€€'s for aero carbon wheels to save a few seconds a kilometer.

Also as your feet are now concentric to centre of the pedal axel you are now and only now for the first time pedaling in a true circle, unlike your current pedals where your feet are further away from center of b/b at top of pedal stroke and closer to centre of b/b at bottom of pedal stroke, hence pedaling in ovals !!

So now you have more leverage at the bottom of pedal stroke and and a shorter quicker route over the top "dead spot" , pretty much what the numerous "oval" rings are trying to acheive.

Due to the above positive effects you can now lower your saddle and bar on average 15-20mm dependent on pedals, hence lowering centre of gravity.

On a serious note, please do try them

Thanks for reading.

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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

Oh I would love to see that PDF of the data. I wonder why they don't have it on their website. :lol:

I am surprised they don't offer a money back guarantee as well. And a "pro" endorsement.

Snake oil is so cool.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

EnglishRichie
Posts: 56
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:44 pm

by EnglishRichie

Once you have read up on these ( Journel Of Sports Sciences August 2008 ) and I do suggested you do and have personally used these yourself at least once, then and only then can you make any kind of intelligent comment on this product, when you have come back to me and if you can honestly tell me that they are the biggest load of B******s you have ever used then I will eat my words !

Better still, if you think you know more about this type of product than the designers contact them and YOU tell them that their products dont do anything any they are waisting their time !! just promise me you will tell me what they say.

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devinci
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Location: Canada

by devinci

it says it gives you more leverage, I guess im gonna run 200mm cranks and then turn pro

bricky21
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by bricky21

That vista website sucks(or just my PC sucks). They've got several pdf's on there but I can't open or download any of them.

Madcow did a review on these a while back and said they felt really good along with a list of negatives like pedaling threw corners, a huge q factor and more though he went on to say they're his new go to pedal.

Not being an engineer they seem to work much the same way as Q-rings...another product that a lot of people say feels good, but nobody can seem to quantify any actual performance gains.

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slyboots
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Location: Russia, Moscow

by slyboots

EnglishRichie wrote:So now you have more leverage at the bottom of pedal stroke and and a shorter quicker route over the top "dead spot" , pretty much what the numerous "oval" rings are trying to acheive.

This is not what "oval" rings are trying to achieve. It is impossible to change top vs bottom leverage with the rings.
And yes, I used Vista pedals. They felt fine, nothing ground breaking, just fine, but boy, does their clipping mechanism suck... I've got defective right pedal and after receiving a replacement with the exact same defect I gave up - benefits were definitely not worth the headaches.

cazone
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:32 pm

by cazone

wassertreter wrote:At the moment I'm not doing very special exercises for my pedal stroke, just 5km every now and then where I'm focusing on engaging my ankles both pulling upwards and pushing down. I don't think my stride totally sucks, but probably still worth improving. About one legged drills I'm a bit wary, I've been reading here that they only help until you reach a certain level of smoothness.

Any advice for exercises? Thanks.


the one thing I do is to lift my knees.

C*

mrfish
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Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland

by mrfish

+1 on pedalling harder.

If those Vista pedals or those clutch pedals that Bjarne Riis tried about ten years ago actually provided 2% extra power, then the people using them would be winning races.

You also have to remember that Laurent Jalabert in his prime used to ride Look pedals with Carnac shoes, which together have a stack height of probably 5cm. Didn't stop him winning races.

cookiemonster
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Joined: Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:00 pm

by cookiemonster

I've no idea as to whether these pedals deliver the advantages stated or not; however the concept doesn't seem that far fetched and the general direction of what they are trying to achieve seems sensible, at least to the extent that the opprobrium directed at the guys highlighting the product is plain out of order.

Your mid point of the ball of your foot is attached about 20mm above the pedal axis (give or take); therefore when you cycle your foot does not follow a circle with the centre at the mid point of the bottom bracket, but a circle with the center above the bottom bracket. At the bottom of the stroke you have a shorter effective crank length, and at the top a longer effective crank length, which in turn changes the pedal speed/force required for a given power. I can understand that a method to bring the center point into line with the BB will even this out.

I've not used them and I'm not about to; but I wouldnt call them snake oil just because they dont fit with the current received wisdom. Someone has to build a product and and get it out there for testing to see if it works - and there has been no product or technology in cycling history, from pneumatic tyres, though dérailleurs to aero frames that havent been rubbished as irrelevant, unworkable or snake oil when they were first conceived.

So, again, although I'm not parting with my hard cash, I applaud these guys for trying something new.

jon

mrfish
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland

by mrfish

Sure, I have nothing against someone preferring Brand X of pedals, but to say X is faster than Y when there is a mountain of practical and scientific evidence that it makes no difference is wrong.

Regarding pedal stack height and pedalng in circles, ovals or in straight lines, some research on a recumbent website (populated by people who though on average less fit than roadies are much more scientific about things) will show you that multiple well-regarded and properly designed studies over the last 30 years have all shown that it makes bugger all difference whether you pedal squares, circles or triangles or put blocks of wood under your shoes or not. Most conclude that there is no gain, just increased weight and complexity of the drive mechanism.

Then there's the practical evidence which shows this stuff is snake oil. We all know that good athletes win races, and whether you ride a Cervelo or a Pinarello makes very a very small difference in the real world away from marketing. Similarly the brand of pedals or chainring that you choose makes no difference. Of course athletes are always willing to take money from manufacturers wishing to promote something. The best example I can remember was Paula Newby-Fraser. She won some races using crank arms with a bearing in the middle. But that was all about Paula and had 0 to do with the cranks.

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Butcher
Shop Owner
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Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:58 am

by Butcher

mrfish wrote:She won some races using crank arms with a bearing in the middle. But that was all about Paula and had 0 to do with the cranks.


I beg to differ, If she had no cranks, I would bet she would have lost. :mrgreen:

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