Powerprofiles

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

Moderator: Moderator Team

Post Reply
zmjones
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:55 am
Contact:

by zmjones

RyanH wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 2:56 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
zmjones wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:44 pm
you people are ridiculous. i've been riding ~4.5 years now, have around 2238 hrs of riding in me now (33) and feels like i just do not have it in me to get to that level.

The main hurdle is mentality. Most able-bodied people with no prior conditions can achieve, say, a 4w/kg FT on a time crunched plan.
I agree with this. In high school I ran cross country for three years and would pretty much finish near the back for every meet. My personal best for a 5k was 18:30 after 3 years of hard work.

Jump forward to 10 years later I started riding. Within 1.5 years of riding, I hit 4.8w/kg for 20 minutes. I didn't do anything special, just rode a lot and rode very hard pretty much every ride (raced twice a week for the race season too). After that though, it took 4 years to finally set a new PR on a 20 min effort, which in 2018 I got to 5.2w/kg for 20 minutes.

The point being, I don't think I am gifted from a cardio standpoint. I was a very bad runner and other sports in high school. I'd say that my ability to push myself harder than most people are willing to is what sets me apart. That and I'm not carrying much excess fat at 5'9 and around 70-72kg.
ya'll are ignoring the possibility of selection effects. i ran cross country too and didn't hit anywhere near 18:30 (and also ran and swam all 4 years). think of all the people that didn't even try because they were worse at the mile, or whatever sort of endurance exercise they were first exposed to.

point is it is totally conjecture to say that the average person can do 4 w/kg after training. you may not have MVDP natural talent but you undoubtedly have a lot more than many people. a more accurate picture of this might be had if we all took a few years off riding, were sedentary, and then all did the same training for a period of time. i imagine you'd find the numbers all over the place for a myriad of reasons. but i find it extremely hard to believe that the mean would be 4 w/kg. like i said this is relatively rare amongst people training much more than 6-8 hours a week. i mean i'm on track to do 600+ hours this year and i think i'll baaaarely be there.

it is very appealing to say we all achieved level x because of hard work and while there is obviously truth to that in that everyone is an exercise responder (all though there is some debate about this) in general it is just not true.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

zmjones wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:58 pm
i find it extremely hard to believe that the mean would be 4 w/kg. like i said this is relatively rare amongst people training much more than 6-8 hours a week. i mean i'm on track to do 600+ hours this year and i think i'll baaaarely be there.

it is very appealing to say we all achieved level x because of hard work and while there is obviously truth to that in that everyone is an exercise responder (all though there is some debate about this) in general it is just not true.

And this is what we mean by having the right mentality. How will you hit a mark that you don’t believe is attainable? I’ll tell you a secret, 4.0w/kg is not that high. There’s a reason RyanH blew past it in 1.5 years and he’s not even a traditional endurance skinnyboi if he’s 5’9” and 70-72kg. I’m 5’10” and 60kg as of today.

And I didn’t say everyone, I conservatively used just the tall part of the bell curve...the middle 50%. It’s probably closer to the middle 2/3rds for “genetic potential.” Now if I claimed 5w/kg, then you’d have an argument.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



User avatar
ryanw
in the industry
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:52 pm
Location: London

by ryanw

In four years of cycling I've gone from a 1.9w/kg to 4.6w/kg FTP, doing at most 8,500km a year (a lot of that is commuting to work)

If you are actually "in" to cycling and in general good health, 4w/kg isn't all that for the average Joe.
SL8 S-Works Project Black - 6.29kg
IG: RhinosWorkshop

RyanH
Moderator
Posts: 3181
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

by RyanH


zmjones wrote: i'd say in most of the gravel races around here if you have a 4 w/kg ftp you'll be top 10. plenty of people in these things do serious hours.
Not in California. 4w/kg is Cat 4 race pack fodder in CA. And, how are you coming to the conclusion that 4w/kg ftp means top 10? Do you know the ftp of the top finishers or are you going off their average power?

In 2016 I had a pretty wicked power profile but still didn't manage to break the 330w for 20 minute mark. I did 633 hours that year. 2018 I bought a house and was able to start my rides on Mulholland (better quality, but shorter rides). I also started riding with very strong people around that time and switched my Saturday ride to the NOW group ride (again, better quality). I rode fewer hours that year but had a huge breakthrough in 20 min power. Quality is king if you want to get stronger.

We're lucky in CA since we have access to an abundance of competitive group rides. If I was doing 600 hours by myself primarily, I wouldn't be able to push myself to the levels I achieved.

User avatar
LouisN
Posts: 3508
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

I just hope most of you end up with less than 4.3 Watts/kg when 50+.
If not I hate you guys :lol:

Louis :)

zmjones
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:55 am
Contact:

by zmjones

RyanH wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 12:53 am
zmjones wrote: i'd say in most of the gravel races around here if you have a 4 w/kg ftp you'll be top 10. plenty of people in these things do serious hours.
Not in California. 4w/kg is Cat 4 race pack fodder in CA. And, how are you coming to the conclusion that 4w/kg ftp means top 10? Do you know the ftp of the top finishers or are you going off their average power?

In 2016 I had a pretty wicked power profile but still didn't manage to break the 330w for 20 minute mark. I did 633 hours that year. 2018 I bought a house and was able to start my rides on Mulholland (better quality, but shorter rides). I also started riding with very strong people around that time and switched my Saturday ride to the NOW group ride (again, better quality). I rode fewer hours that year but had a huge breakthrough in 20 min power. Quality is king if you want to get stronger.

We're lucky in CA since we have access to an abundance of competitive group rides. If I was doing 600 hours by myself primarily, I wouldn't be able to push myself to the levels I achieved.
well i guess what i'm interested in isn't really well described by ftp. i'm mostly pack fodder in 3/4 road races here as well, though i don't road race hardly at all.

there is, for example, a gravel fondo/race i do which is around 90 miles and 12k climbing, 2 1.5 hour climbs roughly. the guy who won in 2018 weighs 70kg according to strava and did 285 for an hour on the main part of the climb (around 250 for the first 2.5 hours of the race) and then 250 for the second 1.5 hour climb.

his ftp is set at 352 or 5 w/kg. i did 230-240 on both and weighed probably 76 at the time, my ftp is set at 290w or 3.8. think i was 20th or so. most people don't have a pm in a gravel race but given the long climbs even a small increase in w/kg will mean substantial time saved on the climbs.

so i suppose my statement would be less true if they were more competitive, but as things are now anyway maybe.

i feel like i get enough time in upper zones solo but maybe i'm wrong. hard to calibrate. ultimately i care more about 5+ hour power.

zmjones
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:55 am
Contact:

by zmjones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 9:09 pm
zmjones wrote:
Sat May 09, 2020 5:58 pm
i find it extremely hard to believe that the mean would be 4 w/kg. like i said this is relatively rare amongst people training much more than 6-8 hours a week. i mean i'm on track to do 600+ hours this year and i think i'll baaaarely be there.

it is very appealing to say we all achieved level x because of hard work and while there is obviously truth to that in that everyone is an exercise responder (all though there is some debate about this) in general it is just not true.

And this is what we mean by having the right mentality. How will you hit a mark that you don’t believe is attainable? I’ll tell you a secret, 4.0w/kg is not that high. There’s a reason RyanH blew past it in 1.5 years and he’s not even a traditional endurance skinnyboi if he’s 5’9” and 70-72kg. I’m 5’10” and 60kg as of today.

And I didn’t say everyone, I conservatively used just the tall part of the bell curve...the middle 50%. It’s probably closer to the middle 2/3rds for “genetic potential.” Now if I claimed 5w/kg, then you’d have an argument.
i'm completely aware there are lots of people are well above that. i just don't think you understand selection effects, but this is an irrelevant argument. i just don't like the condescension that comes with you saying that anybody should be able to hit that number. sure in some sense you are correct but i'm not willing to lose muscle on the top, nor do i have the desire to impose the discipline on myself to get bf much lower than it is, so it is gain power at maybe at the lightest 73-74. which has just not come easily.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

We’re arguing in circles. You’re saying people don’t have time, desire, discipline, nutritional habits, etc. to get there. That can be the situational reality for sure. You also called others “ridiculous” and wrote that you didn't have it in you to get to that level. I’m just saying you most likely do have it in you from a genetic standpoint.

zmjones
Posts: 180
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:55 am
Contact:

by zmjones

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun May 10, 2020 5:26 am
We’re arguing in circles. You’re saying people don’t have time, desire, discipline, nutritional habits, etc. to get there. That can be the situational reality for sure. You also called others “ridiculous” and wrote that you didn't have it in you to get to that level. I’m just saying you most likely do have it in you from a genetic standpoint.
ridiculous as in impressive. yes we are. i'm just saying that is a maybe. you don't have data on that.

RyanH
Moderator
Posts: 3181
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 4:01 pm
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

by RyanH


zmjones wrote: i feel like i get enough time in upper zones solo but maybe i'm wrong. hard to calibrate. ultimately i care more about 5+ hour power.
That sounds like a tough race. Training for something like that is hard and one of the reasons I don't do those types of events because I find high volume is necessary.

FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

FTP is really just a number. It can predict a few things about how you perform, but really fails to tell the bigger picture. For my experience (15 months) I have a pretty decent FT (321Watts at 70kg). I can outclimb most people I know on 5 to 60 minute climbs. My power to CdA is much worse in comprisson, which makes me not nearly as competitive in flat races or flat TTs. Speaking of flat races, if there is a sprint finish, I am definitely going to get dropped 1K before the finish. Also, my 3+ hr power is rather average in comprisson to people I know. While many people in my strava can maintain 21mph for 5+ hours, I am falling apart doing so after 3hours.

People always look at FTP as if it were to determine everything. IMHO, your 1hr power is a Good predictor of ONLY your one hour power, and gives little insight into your overall quality as a rider. I think that even 4DP isn't great at that either.
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

User avatar
ryanw
in the industry
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:52 pm
Location: London

by ryanw

Agree. I'm strong AF up to an hour, then I am complete sh*t
SL8 S-Works Project Black - 6.29kg
IG: RhinosWorkshop

eins4eins
Posts: 675
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2016 11:49 am

by eins4eins

I disagree. 40-70min power is a perfect metric to determine the max capacity of your aerobic engine. And as in every other endurance sport, aerobic capacity is key to strong performance. Therefore a well tested FTP does tell a lot about the bigger picture or quality for an experienced cyclist.

If you're super strong for an hour and then fall apart, in most cases thats not a type of rider thing, but rather a sign of a poorly developed aerobic engine.

People new to endurance sports often tend to be strong for short durations, but lack stamina, as they simply didn't have the time to build that engine to full potential and take advantage of their genetic capabilities.

User avatar
ryanw
in the industry
Posts: 2284
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:52 pm
Location: London

by ryanw

Or I'm 85kg, hence why I'm a fairly decent crit rider / sprinter and TT'er.

It's all relative. I can't take a buffet meal with me for 300w / 4 hour rides.

I don't train to do 250w for 4 hours, it doesn't intrest me in the slightest.
SL8 S-Works Project Black - 6.29kg
IG: RhinosWorkshop

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



FlatlandClimber
Posts: 2491
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:37 pm

by FlatlandClimber

eins4eins wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 8:05 am
I disagree. 40-70min power is a perfect metric to determine the max capacity of your aerobic engine. And as in every other endurance sport, aerobic capacity is key to strong performance. Therefore a well tested FTP does tell a lot about the bigger picture or quality for an experienced cyclist.

If you're super strong for an hour and then fall apart, in most cases thats not a type of rider thing, but rather a sign of a poorly developed aerobic engine.

People new to endurance sports often tend to be strong for short durations, but lack stamina, as they simply didn't have the time to build that engine to full potential and take advantage of their genetic capabilities.
So FTP is only for the experienced cyclist?
My FTP per kilogram is above that of most riders (above that one 92% of cycling analytics users, whatever that means). Then I must ask, why isn't there a metric in a 4DP (or whatever test) that shows how a rider performs over much longer efforts? Apparently, my power profile is bad efforts under 1 minute, good effort 5 to 90 minutes, Bad efforts beyond that. Don't see why this is improbable?
Cervelo P5 Disc (2021) 9.1kg
Factor Ostro Gravel (2023) 8.0kg
S-Works SL8 (2023) 6.3kg

*weights are race ready, size 58/L.
Sold: Venge, S5 Disc, Roubaix Team, Open WI.DE, Émonda, Shiv TT, Crux, Aethos, SL7

Post Reply