Training Routines

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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thebigring
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 1:57 pm

by thebigring

kevinkalis wrote:
thebigring wrote:Is noone doing base? All this 150-200% of FTP interval work sounds pretty darn serious :shock:

I have been building up my endurance rides, currently 4 hours at 70% of FTP. Makes the 2 x 20 interval sessions seem like fun! :-D


What I'm doing is base (The post above yours). The only things that 4 hours at 70% FTP will get you is fatigued and a severe drop in testosterone. Base training is all about increasing FTP.


What's the difference between 4.5 hours Endurance (your program) and 4 hours at 70% FTP?

kevinkalis
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:29 pm

by kevinkalis

thebigring wrote:What's the difference between 4.5 hours Endurance (your program) and 4 hours at 70% FTP?


You'll notice a lot of my training is aimed towards the 3 major intervals. VO2Max, Threshold and Sweet Spot. Even though I have 'big' days, it's only 2 days a week and, even then, I spend about 20% of the total time over the weekend training FTP.

I'll agree there is benefit in spending time in the saddle at lower intensities but it's not to somehow magically allow you to train at higher intensities later on. The real benefit to time in the saddle is just that - time in the saddle. Allowing your body to get used to extended periods on the bike. Not just your legs but your butt, shoulders, back etc.

I've seen guys with FTP of 360W doing no more than 8 hours a week, even during so called 'base'. Take from that what you will....
K2

Do you suffer more when you train, or cannot train?

thebigring
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 1:57 pm

by thebigring

kevinkalis wrote:
thebigring wrote:What's the difference between 4.5 hours Endurance (your program) and 4 hours at 70% FTP?


...
Even though I have 'big' days, it's only 2 days a week and, even then, I spend about 20% of the total time over the weekend training FTP.

I'll agree there is benefit in spending time in the saddle at lower intensities but it's not to somehow magically allow you to train at higher intensities later on. The real benefit to time in the saddle is just that - time in the saddle. Allowing your body to get used to extended periods on the bike. Not just your legs but your butt, shoulders, back etc.


Are you saying there is no difference between our endurance ride workouts?

You almost sound embarassed to admit you do long rides (and very dismissive of my admission). The whole "time pressured" thing forcing everyone into 2x20 twice a week and no more than 8 hours / week is a bit of a trendy view of training - if you have the time available (for training AND recovery) it's not bad for you to do long rides.

I am going to completely disagree with you on the "time (at 70% FTP) in the saddle doesn't train you" stuff though. Looking at Coggan's inverted bell curve, training at 70% gives you ~35 units of stress. Training at 80% gives you ~45 units of stress. To get the same "stress" as 4 continuous hours (x 35 = 130) you would have to ride at 80% for 2:50, and 90% (50 units) for 2:36. I back up my 4 hour day with more of the same plus 2 x 20 @ 90% FTP.

I think anyone doing 90% FTP for 2:36 is going to be doing very little the next day. ;-)

kevinkalis
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:29 pm

by kevinkalis

@thebigring

I'm not embarassed at all, otherwise I wouldn't spend nearly as much time on the bike as I do. As I said, there is merit in long rides but, FTP is the golden standard for road racing and time trials . Riding at 70% of FTP will do very little to increase your FTP as opposed to harder sessions.

I think the sheer amount of posts on this particular discussion by other members should be enough to prove I'm not the only one who believes this.

Rather than continue 'off topic', why don't you start a separate topic comparing the two approaches? I bet it'd make for some fascinating reading.
K2

Do you suffer more when you train, or cannot train?

thebigring
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Joined: Mon May 11, 2009 1:57 pm

by thebigring

I'm discussing training routines, and fail to see how this is "off topic". :shock:

Your responses make a lot more sense now.

kevinkalis
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Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:29 pm

by kevinkalis

thebigring wrote:I'm discussing training routines, and fail to see how this is "off topic". :shock:


OK, then let's put an end to this.

Read these:

http://www.biketechreview.com/performance/base.htm

http://www.biketechreview.com/performan ... ondria.htm

If you still want to stick to your theory, don't let me, or anyone else for that matter stop you. In fact, I'm not even sure why I'm saying this, the more people who train this way the better for me :D
K2

Do you suffer more when you train, or cannot train?

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KH1
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Location: Mornington Peninsula

by KH1

Please try and keep the posts in this thread to either a Routine and any comments/info you may wish to add about it or specific questions regarding one that has been posted. Otherwise this thread will end up like many others and not the way I envisioned it to be - a thread for people to use as a reference for learning about and trying new training routines. :)
Thanks

Classic Over Under Routine
This is a 5 x 6min session done on either the trainer or out on the road (I prefer the road for this one)
10+ min warm up
1 min @ 110-120%FTP
5 min @ 90%FTP
1min Recovery
Repeat 4 more times
10+ min cool down
Don't let the truth get in the way of a good story......
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KWalker
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by KWalker

I like doing over/unders a little differently.

I usually start out with a 2:1 or 3:1 over to under ratio depending on the point in the season. I'll do them either at tempo/LT, or tempo/L6. Sometimes, I might do intervals where I do 5 minutes at threshold then 1 at L6 and vice versa, but they have some rest between them.

So with the normal scheme I would do 2 minutes L3, 1 minute L4, 2 minutes L3 usually for 12 minutes starting out, then work my way up over a few weeks to 20 minutes. Once at 20 I might elongate the ratio. I usually do 3 total sets with 4:1 work to rest.
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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

My travelling or generally time crunched pain session:-

4 min warm up
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin

If you're not dry retching then you're not doing them right :thumbup:
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MrAK
Posts: 121
Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:44 am
Location: Melbourne

by MrAK

Tapeworm wrote:My travelling or generally time crunched pain session:-

4 min warm up
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin

If you're not dry retching then you're not doing them right :thumbup:


Also known as the Tabata protocol.
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Tapeworm
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by Tapeworm

Correctamundo, also applicable to running, swimming, rowing etc if you're into that sort if thing.
"Physiology is all just propaganda and lies... all waiting to be disproven by the next study."
"I'm not a real doctor; But I am a real worm; I am an actual worm." - TMBG

KWalker
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Location: Bay Area

by KWalker

What percentages do you use? I did those for cross and liked them a lot and they look identical to the over/unders I described at LT and tempo
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LouisN
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Location: Canada

by LouisN

MrAK wrote:
Tapeworm wrote:My travelling or generally time crunched pain session:-

4 min warm up
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin

If you're not dry retching then you're not doing them right :thumbup:


Also known as the Tabata protocol.



Keep these good ideas coming guys :thumbup:

I was doing something that looks a bit like this a few years ago, when I started training (sorry for french article):

http://www.savoir-sport.org/savoir_spor ... icleID=410

Also I have a question for the Tabata protocol: When in the macrocycles do you introduce this ? Since it must "empty" the "gas tank" a lot...
In build phase ? Or Peak ?


Louis :)

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KH1
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Location: Mornington Peninsula

by KH1

KWalker wrote:What percentages do you use? I did those for cross and liked them a lot and they look identical to the over/unders I described at LT and tempo

I would use Maximal effort for these on each rep. For me this type of excersize would be basically as much as I've got to give for each 'on' period.
Haven't done this set on the trainer but I have been doing Hill sprints 8-9% grade sprint for 250m all out 4x with 5min recovery between. Each sprint lasts about 30 seconds. Then 750m sprint 4x on 1-4% gradient. Again 5min recovery between sets.
This is throw up in the mouth stuff and as hard as you can imagine training for such a short session.
New people to this set should try and start out with 3 of each sprint - they are that tough. My first attempt I only mangaed the 3 x 250m.
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Andrew69
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am

by Andrew69

MrAK wrote:
Tapeworm wrote:My travelling or generally time crunched pain session:-

4 min warm up
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin
8 x 20 secs on/10sec off (for a total of 4 mins)
4 mins spin

If you're not dry retching then you're not doing them right :thumbup:


Also known as the Tabata protocol.

Not exactly :mrgreen:

If done properly (that is 20 seconds all out, 10 seconds rest), there is no way in hell that you can do more than 1 set.

Used to do them ages ago while doing front squats.
Now that HURT :thumbup:

Cant seem to get the same effect on the bike, but then Ive only ever tried to do them on a trainer.
Maybe time to try them an a local climb...

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