Help me with Cadence, why should or shouldn’t I be concerned…

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gSporco
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by gSporco

Ok Ww's,

About me, Im a multi sport amateur/hobbyist.. (Cycling, Ice Hockey, Golf). But am transitioning more towards just Cycling and Golf.. I dont race, never will but want to be the beat version of myself.. Im 5,7" or 170cm and weigh 180lbs or 81kg (working on dropping 6kg, to help my climbing)

Ok okay, so my cadence on average is 70-80rpm (average toral ride).. I struggle to maintain higher than 85 rpm (for longer than 10 min at a time).. So is there something wrong? Does my cadence suck? Doni need to train for higher cadence?

Why do I ask? Watching Zwift academy special on GCN the male team managers commented a few times about how they were concerned with the one riders low cadence (it was around 80 rpm).

Now I riding on Zwift and finally committing to training this year I noticed that cadence is very important when using ERG mode on the Kickr v5.. pedaling anything +5% gradient on "Simulation ride" or around and above FTP during a "training ride" if you are not spinning above 80rpm it becomes extremely hard to pedal and stalling in quicksand can happen really easily..

So for those of you who can decipher what I am asking, please chime in?

Do I need to work on getting my average cadence above 75rpm? Does it matter? Should I stop thinking about it?

TIA
Last edited by gSporco on Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

1) Everyone has a different "natural" cadence at a particular power band, but it can also be trained higher.
2) Cadence increases with effort for most people. At 50W, I literally do not care what my cadence is. It could be 40rpm. It doesn't matter. At 150W, I might be at 60rpm. At 180W I might be at 70rpm. At 220W, 80 rpm...270W, 90rpm...330W, 100rpm and so on.
3) I also have no idea when you are pedaling at 70rpm and when you are pedaling at 80rpm. 70rpm at max aerobic sounds dreadful. 80rpm still sounds low, but I do know people who get by doing it. However you should not struggle to maintain 85rpm.
4) Cadence is important because it allows you to maximize the contributions from different metabolic engines in your body. At the tipping point between aerobic and anaerobic power, you want both in balance. The lower the RPM, the more you are relying on leg strength.
5) As a heavier individual, it makes sense to me that you are leveraging your strengths (skeletal muscle mass.) As you build up your endurance/aerobic fitness, you will probably find that your natural cadence increases.
6) ERG and "gradients" do not coexist. If you are riding in ERG, then the amount of resistance is set based on power vs cadence and that's it. Gradients are really just a resistance curve. If you are riding a Zwift world outside of a workout, you will be in "Sim mode." Zwift sends gradient info to the trainer. The trainer sets resistance accordingly independent of your power output and cadence.

To answer your final question, yes, you should work on your cadence. Do it gradually.

jcm1406
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by jcm1406

I used to ride with a lowish cadence (around 80rpm) and pedalling didn't feel very smooth. I switched from 175mm cranks to 165mm cranks and my cadence increased dramatically. I generally now ride around 95-100rpm for easy riding and 105-110rpm for threshold efforts. I wouldn't necessarily recommend making as drastic change on crank length as I did, but a gradual reduction in crank length could help to increase your cadence. I have definitely found that with shorter cranks, I can sustain higher powers with a higher cadence with no detriment to sprint power. FYI, I am 188cm.

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by AJS914

gSporco wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:28 am

Ok okay, so my cadence on average is 70-80rpm.. I struggle to maintain higher than 85 rpm.. So is there something wrong? Does my cadence suck? Doni need to train for higher cadence?
Are you looking at average cadence for a whole ride including coasting? Or you can't maintain 85 for 5 minutes on a flat, smooth road?

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@TobinHatesYou , thank you for your thoroughness... I commented on your reply inline..
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 6:23 am
1) Everyone has a different "natural" cadence at a particular power band, but it can also be trained higher. Looking back at my year on Strava my average cadence for total rides was right around 75rpm (coasting, climbing, sprinting etc..)

2) Cadence increases with effort for most people. At 50W, I literally do not care what my cadence is. It could be 40rpm. It doesn't matter. At 150W, I might be at 60rpm. At 180W I might be at 70rpm. At 220W, 80 rpm...270W, 90rpm...330W, 100rpm and so on. My FTP is embarrassing to me so don't judge, Im working on it, among other things :/ During my Under Over training on Zwift recently I was right around 80-85RPM for 1 min @ 195 and 85-95Rpm for 1 min @ 210. I did this 6x then a break and then 6 more and was toasted. With my FTP around 205-10ish, to pedal that I fluctuate just over 80 rpm. Below that I dont know, but definitely lower.. Sprinting above FTP, anything over 300 is 90rpm and above.

3) I also have no idea when you are pedaling at 70rpm and when you are pedaling at 80rpm. 70rpm at max aerobic sounds dreadful. 80rpm still sounds low, but I do know people who get by doing it. However you should not struggle to maintain 85rpm. 70rpm was referring to a total ride on the road.. its not uncommon for me to ave a total average between 70-75rpm average including coasting, climbing, etc..

4) Cadence is important because it allows you to maximize the contributions from different metabolic engines in your body. At the tipping point between aerobic and anaerobic power, you want both in balance. The lower the RPM, the more you are relying on leg strength. I am realizing this for sure.. Im bulky and can easily mash the pedals to punch up the power for very short duration's <5min.. but if I go hard, I destroy my legs on long rides.. I am able to 2+ hours in the saddle without feeling harsh if I remain in Z1-2 for most of the ride, but if I was in a race I would probably crash in burn as Z3-4 would come into play.

5) As a heavier individual, it makes sense to me that you are leveraging your strengths (skeletal muscle mass.) As you build up your endurance/aerobic fitness, you will probably find that your natural cadence increases. Kinda like a continuation on comment #4. As I dedicate 2022 to getting leaner and becoming a better cyclist, I am hoping that structured training and losing some bulk will get me out of my usual of muscling through efforts, climbs etc.. Increase endurance / aerobic capacity.

6) ERG and "gradients" do not coexist. If you are riding in ERG, then the amount of resistance is set based on power vs cadence and that's it. Gradients are really just a resistance curve. If you are riding a Zwift world outside of a workout, you will be in "Sim mode." Zwift sends gradient info to the trainer. The trainer sets resistance accordingly independent of your power output and cadence. I corrected my initial post.. I do know that, but should have clarified training rides in ERG and SIM rides without ERG. I am thinking that, because I cant grind it out on Zwift, as cadence must be up above 80 RPM in these situations that I can adapt that to actual road riding.

To answer your final question, yes, you should work on your cadence. Do it gradually. I started researching how to train cadence and will incorporate this
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by gSporco

jcm1406 wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:07 pm
I used to ride with a lowish cadence (around 80rpm) and pedalling didn't feel very smooth. I switched from 175mm cranks to 165mm cranks and my cadence increased dramatically. I generally now ride around 95-100rpm for easy riding and 105-110rpm for threshold efforts. I wouldn't necessarily recommend making as drastic change on crank length as I did, but a gradual reduction in crank length could help to increase your cadence. I have definitely found that with shorter cranks, I can sustain higher powers with a higher cadence with no detriment to sprint power. FYI, I am 188cm.
I use 165mm cranks on all my bike, but I switched becasue of bike fit, not cadence (but I did know that it woudl increase cadence, going shorter), I only noticed marginal gains in cadence, but no more left knee pain :)
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gSporco
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by gSporco

AJS914 wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 2:54 pm
gSporco wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:28 am

Ok okay, so my cadence on average is 70-80rpm.. I struggle to maintain higher than 85 rpm.. So is there something wrong? Does my cadence suck? Doni need to train for higher cadence?
Are you looking at average cadence for a whole ride including coasting? Or you can't maintain 85 for 5 minutes on a flat, smooth road?
Yes, I am looking at average cadence on rides.. on the road its around 70-75rpm and on Zwift around 80rpm
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Lelandjt
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by Lelandjt

Ignore "average cadence" because cadence should change based on effort and the average at the end of a ride is just a factor of the terrain and your effort. Adjust your cadence they way you'd adjust revs in a car (you drive a manual transmission, right?). At low load you use low rpms to be efficient. When you want to make more power you use higher rpms. When you want to make max power you use really high rpms.
If you like metrics look at current cadence vs current power.

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by jcm1406

gSporco wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:46 pm
jcm1406 wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:07 pm
I used to ride with a lowish cadence (around 80rpm) and pedalling didn't feel very smooth. I switched from 175mm cranks to 165mm cranks and my cadence increased dramatically. I generally now ride around 95-100rpm for easy riding and 105-110rpm for threshold efforts. I wouldn't necessarily recommend making as drastic change on crank length as I did, but a gradual reduction in crank length could help to increase your cadence. I have definitely found that with shorter cranks, I can sustain higher powers with a higher cadence with no detriment to sprint power. FYI, I am 188cm.
I use 165mm cranks on all my bike, but I switched becasue of bike fit, not cadence (but I did know that it woudl increase cadence, going shorter), I only noticed marginal gains in cadence, but no more left knee pain :)
Ahh nice. On the cadence, I'd just try a higher cadence for a few weeks at higher intensity efforts (say 95rpm) and see if you notice any improvements in feel or perceived effort. Or you could try adding a few one minute high cadence spikes (say 100+rpm). If you're still struggling with it and its not feeling right then maybe just go back. Don't fix whats not broken as the old saying goes.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Echoing others. Average cadence on a full ride isn't that meaningful. There's to0 much stopping, coasting and in between.

My average cadence on a century today was just 77rpm. My average cadence for a 5min effort at 290W was 95rpm.

Your cadence is definitely still on the lowish side, but maybe that's just what your body wants.

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TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 1:42 am
Echoing others. Average cadence on a full ride isn't that meaningful. There's to0 much stopping, coasting and in between.

My average cadence on a century today was just 77rpm. My average cadence for a 5min effort at 290W was 95rpm.

Your cadence is definitely still on the lowish side, but maybe that's just what your body wants.
Maybe this wil help... Some numbers to chomp on..

Feb 2021 my PB on the Volcano KOM.. Average cadence was 70rpm and average Watts was 10 watts under my 20min FTP

Dec 2021 on the Volcano KOM my average cadence was 85rpm and my average Watts was 17 watts under my 20 min FTP and I finished 45 seconds slower.

Not sure this provides any further insight.. What I gather is in Feb I did my typical muscle through it and nearly a year later I focused on spinning more but my power and time suffered.. Obviously Insuck at Alpe du Zwift as I cant muscle it for over an hour..
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by fruitfly

The evidence for what is theoretically most efficient vs what cyclists actually do is confusing. Moreover, optimalilty depends on many variables (fitness, kind of effort, length of effort, muscle mass, length of upper and lower leg, position).

Some of the energy in pedalling goes to pushing on the pedals to propel the bike, and some goes to move your legs up and down. Ignoring everything else, lower cadences are most efficient if efficiency is defined as the highest relative amount of power going to propelling the bike, and lowest amount going to moving the legs. Low cadences are often used in ultra-endurance events because up to 70% of energy expended goes to propelling the bike. However, as has been pointed out above by THY, if the cadence is too low, you can deplete your glycogen reserves, and these take a long time to replenish. At cadences of around 100 for an average rider, only half their energy goes to propelling the bike, and at 130rpm, only about 25% of the rider's energy goes to propellng the bike.

Newer data suggests that oxygen uptake in the main leg muscles decreases as cadence increases, which contributes to the lowered efficiency (can be seen as in increase in heart rate). With training to improve the smoothness and coordination of your pedal stroke, efficiency of muscle oxygenation goes up, and your heart rate goes up less when you increase cadence. It is worth working on a smooth efficient stroke while using a heart rate monitor. When changing cadence in practice be alert to your joints-the cadence change can exacerbate niggling issues.

Heavier people tend to have lower cadences than lighter people, because it takes more energy to move their legs, and vice versa for lighter people. An interesting example is Lance Armstrong who lost significant weight after cancer, and whose cadence went up after the weight loss. Notwithstanding that argument, cyclists do what they prefer. I follow a number of world tour cyclists on Strada, and there is a lot of variation in cadence. Wout van Aert has the most machine-like consistent cadence in the low 90's, yet I would predict from size alone that he would have the lowest cadence. Thibault Pinot who is not a large person, has an average cadence in the high 70's at this time of year. Sepp Kuss lies somewhere in the middle.

Other studies show that experienced cyclists are surprisingly good at picking the most efficient cadence for a give load in a test. I take this to mean that with experience, you know when your cadence is too high or too low, and adjust gearing accordingly. You can waste a lot of enery at both high and low cadence, and so when in doubt, go with what feels the best at a given power.
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by RyanH

The answer above me is much better than what I'm going to contribute but just another data point: my typical cadence on Zwift and climbing at threshold is 70rpm while taking a pull at 150% of threshold on the flats is between 95 and 105 rpm.

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by pdlpsher1

gSporco wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 7:46 pm
jcm1406 wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:07 pm
I used to ride with a lowish cadence (around 80rpm) and pedalling didn't feel very smooth. I switched from 175mm cranks to 165mm cranks and my cadence increased dramatically. I generally now ride around 95-100rpm for easy riding and 105-110rpm for threshold efforts. I wouldn't necessarily recommend making as drastic change on crank length as I did, but a gradual reduction in crank length could help to increase your cadence. I have definitely found that with shorter cranks, I can sustain higher powers with a higher cadence with no detriment to sprint power. FYI, I am 188cm.
I use 165mm cranks on all my bike, but I switched becasue of bike fit, not cadence (but I did know that it woudl increase cadence, going shorter), I only noticed marginal gains in cadence, but no more left knee pain :)
What the body actually feels in terms of spinning speed is actually the foot's linear speed. So on a long crank arm what you feel as a normal cadence will end up being recorded as a lower cadence as compared to a shorter crank arm, since your foot has to travel a greater linear distance on a longer crank arm. So a cadence increase due to a change in crank arm is not better if your foot's linear speed is still the same. A cadence increase with a static crank arm is a real increase.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

pdlpsher1 wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 8:25 am

What the body actually feels in terms of spinning speed is actually the foot's linear speed. So on a long crank arm what you feel as a normal cadence will end up being recorded as a lower cadence as compared to a shorter crank arm, since your foot has to travel a greater linear distance on a longer crank arm. So a cadence increase due to a change in crank arm is not better if your foot's linear speed is still the same. A cadence increase with a static crank arm is a real increase.

It’s not that simple. Even if the distance traveled by your foot remains the same, the torque is lower. The quantity of joint articulations increases while the severity/range decreases.

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