Help me with Cadence, why should or shouldn’t I be concerned…

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

Moderator: Moderator Team

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

I think what pdlpsher1 is talking about is rim speed when it comes to crank lengths but at a given rpm the linear distance your foot travels will be greater with a longer crank compared to the shorter crank. The rpm doesnt change but the distance does. A longer crankarm will give you higher torque at lower rpm whereas a shorter crank will give you better power at higher rpm.
I run a 175 crank and average 85-90 rpm and yes I think cadence is a natural individual thing but I still do some drills for high cadence training mainly with spin ups that are a combo standing first to sitting in a sprint effort for 25-30 sec. and spinning as high rpm as you can without bouncing out of the seat.
I also agree with the above were when poking along at low watts the cadence will be low and when pushing in a group at a good pace the rpm will be on your high end. Also when you are getting tired in a long effort you will notice that your cadence will start to decrease through fatigue.
When I do my base miles I keep an eye on my cadence and try to keep it on the high end cause its easy to forget and get lazy and the next thing I know I am grinding away at a low cadence. When I started racing the cat 1 guys were always saying start your event spinning as best as you can just to be efficient and conserve what you can for the bigger efforts that will come.
I think its good to train spinning.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2019 Colnago V2R Disc Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12444
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

bikeboy1tr wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 3:38 pm
I think what pdlpsher1 is talking about is rim speed when it comes to crank lengths but at a given rpm the linear distance your foot travels will be greater with a longer crank compared to the shorter crank. The rpm doesnt change but the distance does. A longer crankarm will give you higher torque at lower rpm whereas a shorter crank will give you better power at higher rpm.

Yes. Ultimately your actual distance (and foot distance) traveled is the same at a given power regardless of crank length.

However just because you aren't going faster doesn't mean a higher cadence from reducing crank length isn't potentially beneficial.

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



boots2000
Posts: 1393
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:28 pm

by boots2000

If the low cadence bothers you or is inhibiting your progress- Do cadence drills. Drills will be far better than just saying "I am going to ride at a higher cadence".
3x10 min on flat ground at endurance power (or less if you can't do it) 100-110 rpm
various short efforts at 120-140 cadence. Small gear, little or no resisitance at the start. Increase resistance a bit as you improve. Like 30 second efforts.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1394
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:45 pm


However just because you aren't going faster doesn't mean a higher cadence from reducing crank length isn't potentially beneficial.
I have been thinking about a shorter crank but now I have so much money tied up into 175 cranks that its going to get put off for awhile but eventually I will transition to a 172.5 at some point.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2019 Colnago V2R Disc Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12444
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Personally, I wouldn't drop any coin on a 2.5mm difference.

fruitfly
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

When I had one bike with 175mm and the other with 172.5, I couldn't detect any difference at all by feel. When I went from 175 cranks to 165, and it felt like I was in one higher gear, but I really liked the difference in cadence on flatter routes. So I agree with previous poster.
Factor Ostro

gSporco
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:58 am
Contact:

by gSporco

Update:

Working on my cadence for a week now and starting to see an improvement.. Hour long none training rides on zwift are at 85 average RPM and I just did a crit which lasted 21min on Zwift and averaged 94rpm.. Now I know averages dont mean much as discussed here... but at least on Zwift, its a very rare occurrence where I am not pedaling

Thanks for all the tips and insights.. Ill continue to work on this as I enter into my structured training starts after my weight training volume/ intensity drops over the next 30 days
@gSporco - Instagram
Specialized Aethos
State All Road 6061
Retired Cervelo Aspero

AaronG
Posts: 9
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2021 1:34 am

by AaronG

Why dont you just try riding with a higher cadence and see what happens? Thats pretty easy to do, especially on Zwift where the cadence, watts and HR are displayed in the corner. See if you fatigue less at a higher cadence. For me, my body always wants to be around 90. Higher if it is a threshold effort.

I could be wrong but I believe I read that riding at a higher cadence recruits more slow twitch muscle fibers. Riding at a low cadence and high load recruits more fast twitch muscles.

Either way, as posted above, your body will gravitate towards what it wants. If you are faster and more fatigue resistant at a lower cadence, thats fine, but no reason not to experiment, especially on zwift where you can moniter your metrics in real time.

gSporco
Posts: 949
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2020 4:58 am
Contact:

by gSporco

AaronG wrote:
Mon Jan 10, 2022 9:04 pm
Why dont you just try riding with a higher cadence and see what happens? Thats pretty easy to do, especially on Zwift where the cadence, watts and HR are displayed in the corner. See if you fatigue less at a higher cadence. For me, my body always wants to be around 90. Higher if it is a threshold effort.

I could be wrong but I believe I read that riding at a higher cadence recruits more slow twitch muscle fibers. Riding at a low cadence and high load recruits more fast twitch muscles.

Either way, as posted above, your body will gravitate towards what it wants. If you are faster and more fatigue resistant at a lower cadence, thats fine, but no reason not to experiment, especially on zwift where you can moniter your metrics in real time.
This is what I have been doing on Zwift (to cold for me to go out and try), but with Zwift training and regular rides my cadence is improving drastically.. Since I started this thread and listen to what others had to offer as well as read some articles on coaching sites... the drills have been working.. My cadence is now rarely dipping below 80rpm and I am averaging 85 for a total ride... and focusing on where my power bands are at a given cadence.. Like Tobin mentioned above... higher cadence as the power goes up..
@gSporco - Instagram
Specialized Aethos
State All Road 6061
Retired Cervelo Aspero

JMeinholdt
Posts: 763
Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2020 10:31 pm
Location: Topeka, KS

by JMeinholdt

Out of curiosity, since it's come up in this thread... Don't you all exclude zeros from your cadence averages on your headunit? Most are set that way by default. There's absolutely no benefit to including zeros in cadence (as opposed to zero's in power average which is necessary).

One thing I've noticed about my cadence is that as I've gotten stronger and my fitness has improved, my cadence has naturally increased. And being a short guy with stumpy legs, spinning is my friend. When I race crits, I typically spin 95 average and when I'm putting in the higher power efforts, I'm routinely above 100rpm.

Even when climbing I prefer 85-90 rpm unless I'm out of the saddle or gearing doesn't allow it.

I've only ever done a handful of actual cadence "training" workouts. I'm not doubting that you can do specific training to increase it, but in my opinion, your cadence is mostly hindered by your aerobic fitness and will increase as your fitness improves.

Since you're on Zwift, play around with cadence during training blocks. It's really easy to watch how your HR reacts to differences in cadence. Do two separate intervals of the same wattage (doesn't matter what it is), one at 70rpm and one at 100rpm and take note of your HR during those blocks. Your HR will be significantly higher during the 100rpm block which is why your aerobic fitness impacts your ability to maintain high cadence.
Wilier Cento10AIR - SRAM Force AXS - Road/race
3T Exploro - SRAM Rival AXS XPLR - Gravel
Wilier Sestiere - Shimano Tiagra - Commuter

YouTube link: https://www.youtube.com/@JMCyclingVideos

Mocs123
Posts: 816
Joined: Tue May 11, 2021 9:19 pm

by Mocs123

When I started riding a couple of years ago my average cadence for a ride would be about 60 and now it's about 85, so I think as you spend more time on the bike your cadence will go up.

Riding with a higher cadence seems easier on your muscles. About a year ago I had an issue with my rear derailer mid ride and I had to finish the last 25 miles (40km) of the ride using only the 11 tooth cog. My average cadence for the last part of the ride was 47, but I had a few punch climbs where it was lower and I was VERY sore the next day.

A couple of months ago I was on a group ride and my Di2 battery got down to the level where my front derailer wouldn't work and I was stuck in the small ring. I thought I would get dropped but I was able to hold 21mph when I needed to by spinning 110+ RPM. I kept up all the way until the 1300ft (400m) decent where they had to wait on me at the bottom.
2015 Wilier Zero.7 Rim - 6.37kg
2020 Trek Emonda SLR-7 Disc - 6.86kg
2023 Specialized SL7 - 7.18kg

User avatar
ms6073
Posts: 4288
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:24 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

gSporco wrote:
Thu Dec 30, 2021 1:28 am
Watching Zwift academy special on GCN the male team managers commented a few times about how they were concerned with the one riders low cadence (it was around 80 rpm).
While you have alread read a number of excellent answers, something to consider in your Zwift example might have something to do with the quality of the Smart Trainer as some model inertia much better than others, but the managers were probably aluding to how a higher cadence allows for a smoother transition when higher induced loads are encountered. Maybe I am over simplifying, but isn't power (aka torque) essentially the product of the force applied multiplied by the angular velocity (cadence)? With that in mind, generating more power means we can either push on the pedals harder and/or turn the pedals faster, obviously there are limits to how fast most of us can turn the pedals, but wouldn't it stand to reason that if we are transitioning to a higher load interval, then initially increasing power and cadence would help effect the transition with less stress? So which is going to burn more matches when starting the transition - a higher cadence or a lower cadence?
- Michael
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"

Post Reply