Road Racing and Strength Training

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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BrianRR
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:46 pm

by BrianRR

Hey guys.

I'm about to start cycling again after years of not doing so. I am a road cyclist but I would like to gain muscles. My goals are to gain up to 75 Kg and to get stronger, 2xBW Squat, 2.5 BW Deadlift.

I usually ride 25+hours a week and could train 4 days in the gym. My goal for next year is a 4 day tour and a lot of crits. So I have to be fast and explosive.

My current stats:

BW: 70 Kg
Height: 178 cm
Squats: 100 kg 3x5
Deadlift: 110 kg 3x5
Bench: 65 kg 3x5
OHP: 45 kg 3x5


What strength program should I do? Does anyone have experience with both?

Also I usually burn 4500 calories a day. What does a 4500 calorie meal plan look like? Any carbs recommendations?

Thanks in advance

by Weenie


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Bowser
Posts: 13
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2018 10:44 pm

by Bowser

25+hrs/wk on the bike plus 4xS&C sessions... that’s pro level stuff and would suggest you need a pro level coach to very carefully plan/manage that load...

As with all things, you can’t have it all and need to have a priority. Cycling performance or hypertrophy?

Research suggest max hypertrophy is achieved through 16-24 sets per muscle group split between 2-3 sessions per week.

Say you hit glutes with 8 sets, 3 times a week, or alternatively 12 sets twice a week, good luck riding 25+hrs a week!

With that volume on the bike you’d have to be very careful in managing the signalling to your body to actually build muscle.

On nutrition, if you’re looking for 4,500kcals/day you’d be looking at roughly

Protein: 2g/kg bw (140g at 560kcal)
Carbs: 10-12g/kg bw (700-840g at 2,800- 3,360kcal)
Fat: makes up remainder (65-125g at 580-1,140kcal)

fruitfly
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

I read an interesting article in the New York Times about weight training. Central claim was that doing just one set with reps to exhaustion is as effective for building as doing 3 sets. The difference is that the group doing 3 sets showed more hypertrophy. Cyclists look like they do because they are prioritizing keeping the weight off, so if your goal is gaining strength without weight, this might be worth considering..

That said, I ride with a guy who is a former national criterium champion, who turned to powerlifting where he was also a champion. He is still very fast indeed on a bike if the course is flat, and the hills aren't too long. HIs ability hold 600W for 20 min is astounding for a 50 year old. He is currently about 172cm, and 100kg. He has the core strength to maintain a great aerodynamic position, and is still an ideal crit rider because of his ability to repetitively accelerate. He does a traditional weight program, has very low body fat, but tires noticeably at about 100km.

Many ways to skin the cat....
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

fruitfly wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 3:03 am
HIs ability hold 600W for 20 min is astounding for a 50 year old.

Do you mean 2 minutes?

Filippo Ganna can't come close to 600W for 20min.

fruitfly
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

Tobin, I stand corrected-memory fails me once again. I looked up the ride I was thinking of, and he did 12.66km in 16m24sec (46.3kph) at 326W.

I looked at some data for recorded values, and only the top 2% of cyclists have measured power outputs over 400W for 20 minutes, or 450W for 10 min.
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Singular
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

by Singular

fruitfly wrote:
Thu Dec 23, 2021 5:23 am
Tobin, I stand corrected-memory fails me once again. I looked up the ride I was thinking of, and he did 12.66km in 16m24sec (46.3kph) at 326W.

I looked at some data for recorded values, and only the top 2% of cyclists have measured power outputs over 400W for 20 minutes, or 450W for 10 min.
That's a slight difference! 😁

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Let me also assure you that 400W for 20min is rarer than even the top 2% of all cyclists. It is closer to top 2% for professional cyclists!

mrlobber
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Location: Where the permanent autumn is

by mrlobber

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:42 am
Let me also assure you that 400W for 20min is rarer than even the top 2% of all cyclists. It is closer to top 2% for professional cyclists!
Is it really so? Even with the limited number of road cyclists in my country (certainly less than 500 who train regularly) I know at least one local amateur (on +/- Cat3 level) who comes from weighlifting background and can do 390 for 20 minutes. Now he weighs close to 100kg, and, of course, is nowhere able to put out 340 for 4+ hours like the pros do, however, as a single metric 400W for 20 minutes surely must be present more than 2% in the cycling population.
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

mrlobber wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 4:41 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:42 am
Let me also assure you that 400W for 20min is rarer than even the top 2% of all cyclists. It is closer to top 2% for professional cyclists!
Is it really so? Even with the limited number of road cyclists in my country (certainly less than 500 who train regularly) I know at least one local amateur (on +/- Cat3 level) who comes from weighlifting background and can do 390 for 20 minutes. Now he weighs close to 100kg, and, of course, is nowhere able to put out 340 for 4+ hours like the pros do, however, as a single metric 400W for 20 minutes surely must be present more than 2% in the cycling population.

Knowing a single very heavy cyclist who can't do 400W for 20min doesn't bode well for your assumption that 2% of cyclists can hit that mark.

fruitfly
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

Some interesting data here from amateurs:

https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2 ... ut-compare
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

fruitfly wrote:
Fri Dec 24, 2021 8:49 pm
Some interesting data here from amateurs:

https://www.cyclinganalytics.com/blog/2 ... ut-compare

This site warns that Cycling Analytics users are a sampling of "serious cyclists."

Only 1.1% of male Cycling Analytics users have an FTP of at least 380W. 0% of female Cycling Analytics users have an FTP of at least 380W. Presumably somewhere between 1/6 to 1/10 of Cycling Analytics users are female (this is a best guess by me.)

The bottom chart claims 398W/20min is 98th percentile, but my assumption is that the resolution here isn't great and it's skewed by the higher than expected number of individuals with a >400W FTP in the first bell curve. There's even an individual >450W FTP.

Oh this is also pure honor system as it's clear that people are rounding up to 200W and 300W.

fruitfly
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

Tobin,

I don't read the data in the Cycling Analytics the same way you do. The table shows both the FTP (max power/0.95) and the maximum power. So the 99th percentile max power is 432W and the FTP is 410; and 98th percentile is max power 398W and FTP 380W. These data disprove the claim "Let me also assure you that 400W for 20min is rarer than even the top 2% of all cyclists. It is closer to top 2% for professional cyclists!"

The Cycling Analytics article points out that in self-reported data, people round up, but shows the data from power meters (otherwise how would he know folks were rounding up the data?), which are the data used for the conclusions. The author points out that since the data were extracted from ride data, they are likely to be lower than data that would be obtained for maximum efforts for the time shown, and so are likely to be under-estimates. The data for males and females are presented separately, so the data you and I are both using is for males only.

It is hard to find data sets for pros since few publish their power numbers, but in various articles that have appeared in the post-doping era, estimates for max 20 min power for peleton in the Tour de France are around 425-430W. Of course the pros are doing these efforts over 21 days, and long stages, so these too are under-estimating what could be achieved with a 20 min max effort by pros.
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

fruitfly wrote:
Sat Dec 25, 2021 7:59 pm
Tobin,

I don't read the data in the Cycling Analytics the same way you do. The table shows both the FTP (max power/0.95) and the maximum power. So the 99th percentile max power is 432W and the FTP is 410; and 98th percentile is max power 398W and FTP 380W. These data disprove the claim "Let me also assure you that 400W for 20min is rarer than even the top 2% of all cyclists. It is closer to top 2% for professional cyclists!"

The Cycling Analytics article points out that in self-reported data, people round up, but shows the data from power meters (otherwise how would he know folks were rounding up the data?), which are the data used for the conclusions. The author points out that since the data were extracted from ride data, they are likely to be lower than data that would be obtained for maximum efforts for the time shown, and so are likely to be under-estimates. The data for males and females are presented separately, so the data you and I are both using is for males only.

It is hard to find data sets for pros since few publish their power numbers, but in various articles that have appeared in the post-doping era, estimates for max 20 min power for peleton in the Tour de France are around 425-430W. Of course the pros are doing these efforts over 21 days, and long stages, so these too are under-estimating what could be achieved with a 20 min max effort by pros.

Dude, you earlier thought 600W for 20min was possible…for a 50 year-old man no less. Perhaps you aren't as familiar with power data and expectations as you think you are?

Look at the bell curve at the top of that page. It only has what looks like five samples (out of ~1000) of at least 400W FTP and one of those is at least 450W. In reality the 450W+ guy represents the top .1% of surveyed men. and the 400W+ guys (including the 450W guy) represent the top .5%.

Again, you said all cyclists. All cyclists includes commuters, recreational cyclists, grocery getters, etc. I said pro cyclists, which does not mean world tour caliber. Pro cyclists means at the very least UCI pro team on road side, and also includes various other disciplines like mountain, BMX, triathlon, etc. IMO anyone being paid a salary to ride bikes could be considered a professional cyclist. And don’t forget, women just happen to be people too, and that drastically brings down the percentiles.

Furthermore, the author did not necessarily use power meter data to confirm whether people are rounding up their FTP or not. He is merely pointing out that the bell curve has very pronounced anomalous spikes at 200W and 300W where the most rounding up has occurred.

I feel very safe in saying that nowhere near 2% of all cyclists can do 400W/20min, and probably not even 2% of all pros (men and women, not just world tour road cyclists) can do 400W/20min.

fruitfly
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

Tobin, for sure I made a mistake originally and acknowledged it. Nevertheless, you can only compare like to with like, and if the comparison sets are different, then the results will be different too. Naturally you will get different results depending on whether the data set includes or excludes women, trained or untrained, all ages or selected ages, this cycling discipline or that. It is also pointless to lump men and women together because of the difference in max recorded power for men (25-26 W/kg for male track and BMX cyclists) and women (20-23 W/kg for track cyclists). So while it is true that careful selection of the data set gives you the result you want, one can query why in a discussion about maximum power one would include untrained people, or expect me to include them.

In any case, picking maximum watts in a given time for example (eg what I did), is a very poor metric because it ignores body weight. The 60kg person of a given wattage is going to be faster than the 100kg person of the same wattage because they have more W/kg, so it is much more useful to compare W/kg. There pros are better than non-pros in W/kg comparisons, mostly because they are lighter (eg that Coggan chart). In the end, what distinguishes the elite from the non-elite is the ability to recover from high efforts. Tour de France riders are amazing not because they can as a peleton average ~430W over 20 min, but because they can do it over and over again in a 21 day race, and at the end of a 200km stage.

It would be interesting to compare pro v amateurs for things like the hour record, TT on the same course. I saw somewhere a comparison of max speeds on the Etape du Tour where amateurs ride a mountainous stage in the Tour de France with the pros, and it wasn't pretty. The best amateur (but recently retired pro) was 30 min slower than the winner (Nibali). and 10 minutes slower than the lanterne rouge who just arrived before the cut-off. The best actual amateur (ie not a former pro) was 40 minutes slower (but 40-44 years old).

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays.

Hugh
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

I’m not seeking “results I want.” I questioned the claim that 2% of all cyclists can do 20min@400W. I then made a counter-claim, narrowing the selection down to pro cyclists (not world tour, not just men) in order for that number to be reality. Basically, I would bet that more than 2% of world tour cyclists can do 400W for 20min, but I’d also bet that a bit less than 2% of professional cyclists can do the same. I tried to find criteria that would realize those numbers.

You did not originally mention w/kg, so that bit is irrelevant. Simply put, you claimed a 50-year-old could do 600W/20min, then claimed 2% of all cyclists could do 400W/20min. It’s okay to be wrong…as I often am (just not here.) If you want to move the goalposts and change your claim to 2% of "trained" male cyclists, that would any least be a lot closer...

I can't get away from the 600W number. It is so far off, I really did think you accidentally added a zero. That you didn’t immediately question that figure strongly suggests you lack familiarity with power charts and human ability.

And honestly the CA data doesn’t have a large enough n, and it is a filtered n.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year

by Weenie


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