Pacing by watts on a long climb within a long ride
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I am interested in rough calculations for pacing of a long climb or climbs within a long ride. I know numbers are only a guide and that if you're feeling good to potentially throw the plan out the window, but looking fo ballpark to then calibrate off of based on how I feel mid way through the big climb of the ride.
Total Distance: 65mi / 100k
2 10-15 minute climbs (1 and 3mi each)
1 big hour long climb (7mi)
I rode this ride several years ago, 4 months after being off the bike for a couple years, and first year testing FTP. I rode the ride at 85% of my FTP for 4h, climbing at 88% but my FTP may have tested low. I tested FTP 7% higher a couple weeks later where I mostly plateaued for the season, so this may have been more like riding at 80% FTP and climbing at 83% FTP which seems more congruent than sustaining 85% FTP for 4 hours.
I get that on the books roughly the whole ride would be roughly tempo pace. I generally do 2x20 @ 90% SS workouts, so I estimate I need to climb below 90%. I've done 92% FTP for an hour before but that was an almost all out effort.
Should I target 80% FTP on flats and recovering and 85% on the climbs? That keeps me all in tempo and underneath my hour PR effort by about 7%.
Is there a general rule of thumb to determining rough numbers to target for climbs/breakaways and then recovery that people use?
Total Distance: 65mi / 100k
2 10-15 minute climbs (1 and 3mi each)
1 big hour long climb (7mi)
I rode this ride several years ago, 4 months after being off the bike for a couple years, and first year testing FTP. I rode the ride at 85% of my FTP for 4h, climbing at 88% but my FTP may have tested low. I tested FTP 7% higher a couple weeks later where I mostly plateaued for the season, so this may have been more like riding at 80% FTP and climbing at 83% FTP which seems more congruent than sustaining 85% FTP for 4 hours.
I get that on the books roughly the whole ride would be roughly tempo pace. I generally do 2x20 @ 90% SS workouts, so I estimate I need to climb below 90%. I've done 92% FTP for an hour before but that was an almost all out effort.
Should I target 80% FTP on flats and recovering and 85% on the climbs? That keeps me all in tempo and underneath my hour PR effort by about 7%.
Is there a general rule of thumb to determining rough numbers to target for climbs/breakaways and then recovery that people use?
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You're not recovering at 80% FTP on the flats...if you want recovery you should be closer to 70%. A training/recreational ride of 4 hours at 80%+ of FTP sounds awful and as you suggest, you may have tested low on your FTP - seems more appropriate to average 80%+ FTP on a hard 2-3 hour ride.
80-85% of FTP on an hour long climb sounds reasonable, but this all depends on your overall fitness level and how hard you went before this climb.
If it's a race situation, then it's completely different and you shouldn't be targetting any power zone at all - you just need to know your limits and not overextend yourself unless it's to hold onto a wheel that can save you watts later but this is race tactics. Generally speaking if you're at or above 90% FTP, you're not going to last long at all.
80-85% of FTP on an hour long climb sounds reasonable, but this all depends on your overall fitness level and how hard you went before this climb.
If it's a race situation, then it's completely different and you shouldn't be targetting any power zone at all - you just need to know your limits and not overextend yourself unless it's to hold onto a wheel that can save you watts later but this is race tactics. Generally speaking if you're at or above 90% FTP, you're not going to last long at all.
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If you can do 80% of FTP for 4 hours without feeling utterly destroyed at the end, then I think you need to retest.
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This. I once did 3.5 hours at 80% and almost had to crawl up the stairs at home. And that was with more consistant pacing. Had I done an hour at 90% in the middle there's no way I could've averaged 80%.TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:20 amIf you can do 80% of FTP for 4 hours without feeling utterly destroyed at the end, then I think you need to retest.
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I did a few gravel races the last weeks. Duration between 6-7h. 5 of 6 the average power was slightly below 80%, NP a little bit above.
If your aerobic fitness is good, 80% for the rolling terrain and 85%+ for uphill sounds reasonable. Looking at the elevation profile there will be enough descending offering time to recover.
But have a look at nutrition. Fueling efforts like this is quite difficult. Especially if you're not used to consume so much energy
If your aerobic fitness is good, 80% for the rolling terrain and 85%+ for uphill sounds reasonable. Looking at the elevation profile there will be enough descending offering time to recover.
But have a look at nutrition. Fueling efforts like this is quite difficult. Especially if you're not used to consume so much energy
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eins4eins wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 7:59 pmI did a few gravel races the last weeks. Duration between 6-7h. 5 of 6 the average power was slightly below 80%, NP a little bit above.
If your aerobic fitness is good, 80% for the rolling terrain and 85%+ for uphill sounds reasonable. Looking at the elevation profile there will be enough descending offering time to recover.
But have a look at nutrition. Fueling efforts like this is quite difficult. Especially if you're not used to consume so much energy
I finished 4th in the 30-39 age group at Huffmaster and that was 69% of FT over 4h45m. I rode much of it in a 2-man chase. My NP was around 80% and I do think in pure steady-state, I might have been able to average that. This is with 180 CTL and doing 25 hour weeks for half a year.
I also put the work into all the shorter duration power zones, so my FT doesn’t suffer. At peak my TTE was 64min.
I can only assume that if one can do 80% of FT for 6-7 hours though, that their PDC is flat as a board.
That is correct. Can ride tempo forever, but no punch at all.TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:20 pmI can only assume that if one can do 80% of FT for 6-7 hours though, that their PDC is flat as a board.
But i'm currently working on turning this into raw speed, as it seems we might be allowed to race on the road again. Everything was cancelled due to covid since end of 2019
250+ watts for 6 1/2 hours is pretty nice!!eins4eins wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:11 amThat is correct. Can ride tempo forever, but no punch at all.TobinHatesYou wrote: ↑Tue Jul 13, 2021 8:20 pmI can only assume that if one can do 80% of FT for 6-7 hours though, that their PDC is flat as a board.
But i'm currently working on turning this into raw speed, as it seems we might be allowed to race on the road again. Everything was cancelled due to covid since end of 2019
One problem with pacing using power up a long climb:
Unless you are raising your relative effort level, you'd have to decrease your power level as you gain altitude. If you're at 1200m climbing up to 2000m at 9/10 RPE, you're going to see a decrease in power unless you increase RPE.
Unless you are raising your relative effort level, you'd have to decrease your power level as you gain altitude. If you're at 1200m climbing up to 2000m at 9/10 RPE, you're going to see a decrease in power unless you increase RPE.
LeDuke wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:56 pmOne problem with pacing using power up a long climb:
Unless you are raising your relative effort level, you'd have to decrease your power level as you gain altitude. If you're at 1200m climbing up to 2000m at 9/10 RPE, you're going to see a decrease in power unless you increase RPE.
But is it a matter of altitude or that you are just more tired?
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I think he is specifically referencing the effect of elevation change on ability to sustain power at the same LoE as elevation increases. Might be a case to watch HR a bit, understanding what HR drift is normal at that LoE across the duration, and tampering power to stay within that normal HR drift even if it means lowering power more than one would do in a flat scenario.Roark wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:27 amLeDuke wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:56 pmOne problem with pacing using power up a long climb:
Unless you are raising your relative effort level, you'd have to decrease your power level as you gain altitude. If you're at 1200m climbing up to 2000m at 9/10 RPE, you're going to see a decrease in power unless you increase RPE.
But is it a matter of altitude or that you are just more tired?
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stevehollx wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 1:50 pmI think he is specifically referencing the effect of elevation change on ability to sustain power at the same LoE as elevation increases. Might be a case to watch HR a bit, understanding what HR drift is normal at that LoE across the duration, and tampering power to stay within that normal HR drift even if it means lowering power more than one would do in a flat scenario.Roark wrote: ↑Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:27 amLeDuke wrote: ↑Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:56 pmOne problem with pacing using power up a long climb:
Unless you are raising your relative effort level, you'd have to decrease your power level as you gain altitude. If you're at 1200m climbing up to 2000m at 9/10 RPE, you're going to see a decrease in power unless you increase RPE.
But is it a matter of altitude or that you are just more tired?
Sure altitude may play a role, but I think that the drift in RPE for a constant wattage when you climb is more related to tiredness than altitude. I mean, we all can sustain 5 mins at FTP with a low RPE, but after 40 mins at the same wattage the RPE increases quite a lot, even if we don't climb a single meter...