Thoughts on Supersapiens glucose monitoring?

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Shrike
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by Shrike

https://www.supersapiens.com/en-GB/cart/

Sound great and I love trying new tech but no way to validate it.

Atmungskette
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by Atmungskette

What do you mean by validating? The sensor itself was originally developed by Abbot for continuous glucose measurement for diabetics, the technology is at least a decade old. If you don't trust your readings you could always compare to a finger prick test.

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AJS914
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by AJS914

My question is how does knowing blood sugar levels inform training. How do I get 50 more FTP watts out of this?

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Kayrehn
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by Kayrehn

AJS914 wrote:My question is how does knowing blood sugar levels inform training. How do I get 50 more FTP watts out of this?
I guess it takes less time to type a sharp comment than to just visit the site and read a little, but I'm helpful so here you go https://www.supersapiens.com/en-GB/education/ Not supporting it in anyway but it piqued my curiosity after just seeing it used by Chris Froome in his latest YouTube video.

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AJS914
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by AJS914

You call that a "sharp comment"? If people on the forum are succesfully using it, I'd love to hear first hand accounts over marketing materials from a web site.

BTW, I gave them my anonymous email to get their training guide. They sent me fluff so far.

Andrew69
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by Andrew69

Shrike wrote:
Sat May 29, 2021 1:37 pm
https://www.supersapiens.com/en-GB/cart/

Sound great and I love trying new tech but no way to validate it.
When none of the studies they cite are even remotely close to showing that continuous glucose monitoring (CGM) aids in performance (in fact, none even come close to testing it!), you know that at best they are clutching at straws, at worst they are outright scammers

My son has Type 1 diabetes can has had a CGM for sometime and it was good for him to understand what his blood glucose levels (BGL) did when he ate certain foods and how much insulin he would have to inject to control his BGL's, but now he is older (21) he understand the cause/effect and doesnt use it anymore
He can feel (with quite a bit of accuracy) what his BGL is doing and adjust his diet and injections to suit with a BGL check (via finger prick) when doing something new.

The biggest issue I have with trying to use CGM to try and control fueling is that it doesnt take into account the effects of adreneline which can cause the BGL to artifically spike giving a false level in that a lot of glucose is dumped into the blood stream by the release of adreneline which then quickly drops once you stop exercising, or it is exhausted, leading to possible hypoglycemia.
My son used to play soccer at a decently high level and we had some issues with his levels after games until we discussed what was going on with his endocrinologist

If you dont understand what is going on, a CGM may actually give you a false sense of security that your fueling is on point when it is actually anything but

petromyzon
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by petromyzon

Adrenaline causes a real rise in blood glucose, it's not artificial. But yes it's hard to work out cause and effect in terms of fuelling and glucose. I've tried SuperSapiens and it was a long extended n=1 experiment in testing what foods did what and trying to unwrap the many factors e.g. stress, intensity and duration that interact.

I haven't looked at their studies but CGM or not I have no trouble believing that increasing the amount of CHO consumed can improve performance. The question is do you need a sensor to tell you that? I personally think it's quite powerful to know that your blood sugar (technically interstitial but it correlates) is in an appropriate range when I feel weak during longer rides - makes underfuelling a less likely explanation.

Other startups (e.g. Levels) are focussing on the health implications (unproven in my book, but a huge potential market if more data is favourable) of more variable glucose in day to day life. Myself and my partner had very different responses to some meals and some authors think that high peaks give unfavourable cardiovascular outcomes. I did lose weight and to some extent it made me "scared" to eat carbs so if you are prone to any kind of disordered eating then I'd stay well away

When I tried it they didn't yet have the Garmin ConnectIQ field. If you are interested in the response during exercise I would say that having a convenient way to view it (i.e. not on your phone in your pocket) is a must.

Finally I thought it was too expensive to use on a regular basis; and then they raised the price further. If is was under say 30 USD/month I would be wearing one 24/7 however. If cost is not a big issue for you and you don't have mental health issues with eating then definitely get one to try, it's interesting at the very least.

If I had to predict this is a huge future market for diabetics and non-diabetics alike, only limited by cost which will fall as numbers go up. Roll on a similar lactate sensor!

Andrew69
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by Andrew69

petromyzon wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 2:42 pm
Adrenaline causes a real rise in blood glucose, it's not artificial.
What I should have said is "artificial" in that it isnt linked to food intake, but yes, it is most certainly real
petromyzon wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 2:42 pm
Other startups (e.g. Levels) are focussing on the health implications (unproven in my book, but a huge potential market if more data is favourable) of more variable glucose in day to day life.
There is actually a lot of published data that a HbA1c greater than 6 is a long term risk factor for CV disease, cancer, etc
Its something I have drilled into my son that his long term health is a direct consequence of his BGL control
petromyzon wrote:
Sun May 30, 2021 2:42 pm
Roll on a similar lactate sensor!
According to iheartbianchi, its on its way!

petromyzon
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by petromyzon

I agree, we know good control is better for diabetics. "Looping" using insulin pumps and CGM to create an artificial pancreas is probably the future of diabetes management for those who can afford it.

The question is whether, for healthy people of a normal, stable weight with a normal HbA1C, minimising glucose variability using CGM is beneficial.

The low carb crew blame it for all sorts of things e.g. coronary artery disease and high blood pressure with no other known cause ("essential hypertension"). They also invoke lots of dietary, genetic and epigenetic factors, gut microbiome diversity etc. etc. as the cause of variability between individuals. As I mentioned I had much higher spikes than my GF when we sat down together and ate similar portions of the same food which was interesting to say the least. But does it mean anything??

Regardless, I think the technology is a growth area. But if it was shown to deliver better health outcomes for "normals" then it would explode.

Shrike
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by Shrike

Also found a thread on TrainerRoad so been reading the discussion there as well. I think it can't do what I want it to do yet, which is really, really basic - I want my Garmin to download say a Connect IQ SuperSapiens App, and then I get fields to choose from, the best would be one that lets me know when I'm approaching a certain threshold from energy availability and my power is likely to tail off if I don't hit (for example) a gel within the next few minutes.

It will be part of an ecosystem that monitors my power curve and BCG levels, past efforts etc and works out what I need to do and when to maintain my best power during a hard effort and keep me on track.

Although the output of what I want is super basic - I'm sure pulling something like this off is difficult.

I hope they will get there though, because if they can do that, remove the guesswork and make it a simple part of my riding, ie. on my head unit, then I would subscribe. I'm not super interested in another separate app right now.

I'm also a little concerned about the marketing. I'm seeing athlete stories pop up on their site, but there's no mention of how glucose monitoring aided the effort: example Ronan's Everesting: https://blog.supersapiens.com/ronan-mcl ... -with-cgm/

For now, for me anyway, it's one to watch and hope for. I hope they crack it and make is accessible through partners. If not, hopefully someone else comes along and pulls it off too - no reason why Garmin or Wahoo can't move into this game. Garmin are doing a billion in profit so they can certainly buy SuperSapiens or accelerate development, catch and overtake them - pushing them out of the market - if they think it's worth pursuing.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

I just don’t feel like I need amazing resolution for my fueling strategy. If I ride at X watts enough times while experimenting with carb intake, I will find a ballpark value that I need for a duration, and then I give myself a surplus of maybe 20% because that won’t adversely affect me specifically.

Shrike
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by Shrike

Yeah it's fine for most riders, but for those of us who run calorie deficits while quickly trying to load on the day or evening before for a long or hard effort the next day it's a massively different story. Playing it by the numbers just doesn't seem to work, the energy just isn't there for some reason. Some form of measurement could be a real eye-opener. I do fail workouts when cutting, a recent example is a 106% FTP 4 x 16min on a POL plan. Last one was out of the question energy wise even though the carbs per hour work out.

Also just did my first vEveresting and considering now how to extend to double and triple. Was so hot that I ended up dehydrated and had to ration carb intake. Felt amazing on lap 7 - felt like hell on lap 8. Nauseous and had a stomach crap. Just couldn't even think about food. Lucky that was a relatively 'easy' (in terms of fuelling) effort, but a double/triple would have been out of the question without a much more informed fuelling plan to deal with the decrease in hydration. Note I'm not talking about taking long break or whatever here, fast attempts using descents as rest only.

I think there is a place for this sort of tech - for me at least, and I'm sure there's a lot of athletes who train on the line due to trying to get weight down at times of the year. Especially those of us who aren't 'full-time' cyclists. We're on and off, busy some years, then trying to catch up on others - but still push ourselves.

Interesting how you like to give yourself a surplus. Not something I ever do - a luxury for guys around their target weight. Mentally I'm always on a diet, really hard to get out of that cycle. I worked 80+ hours a week depressed, drinking and eating through lockdown. Trust me, I got the weight to lose!

Then I'll put it back on next year when busy again of course :P

What about triathletes and ultra guys in general - maybe great for them too, but not within my experience.

petromyzon
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by petromyzon

I'm pretty sure your RPE will be higher if glycogen stores are depleted even in the presence of a normal blood glucose. Why waste your time doing supra-threshold intervals if you aren't fuelling your training properly? And why would you ration carbs if dehydrated?

The Garmin ConnectIQ data field now exists, it gives you a number and the trend. There is no alarm/threshold warning but TBH it's a really dynamic situation and will require some experience of your own fuelling to interpret properly.

I think it's tempting to assume that if your blood sugar is normal during exercise you don't need to eat anything but I'm not sure that is true, especially if you want to perform well. You need a subtle negative energy deficit in the long term to achieve a healthy body composition. If you feel that you are perpetually on a diet I wouldn't mess with CGM, I don't think it's healthy.

Shrike
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by Shrike

You can’t absorb carbs at the same rate as your dehydration increases. In hot temperatures you’ll lose water faster than body can put it back every with the best amount of sodium mixed in. Doctor on another forum has been explaining this is detail and he knows the change in percentages. Interesting problem though not one most riders will ever run into unless they’re TTing an ultra event of some sort. Certainly not something that was on my radar until recently anyway, and I’m finding expert voices that can inform it scientifically and show you how to approach it are really thin on the ground. Most advice really misses the mark because they don’t understand the problem and the science behind it I’m finding. Really niche though, how many people are hitting 10 to 30 hour events as fast as they can in hot environments! These are one offs. Tangent but great tech could help here Id have thought. Notice they used Ronan as one example. I’d love to see them partner with him for a double or triple and break it down, though he’s using Mamore Gap in cool weather.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Shrike wrote:
Mon May 31, 2021 2:15 pm
Yeah it's fine for most riders, but for those of us who run calorie deficits while quickly trying to load on the day or evening before for a long or hard effort the next day it's a massively different story. Playing it by the numbers just doesn't seem to work, the energy just isn't there for some reason. Some form of measurement could be a real eye-opener. I do fail workouts when cutting, a recent example is a 106% FTP 4 x 16min on a POL plan. Last one was out of the question energy wise even though the carbs per hour work out.

Stop sabotaging your workouts by trying to cut it close on nutrition. Okay I get it, you’re trying to lose weight, so skip the jelly donut afterward and let the surplus from before/during your ride kickstart your recovery.

How will you know? It’s the same sensation as bonking...if your gut/liver feels like it’s being squeezed, then you can reach for that donut.

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