Legs fatigue before cardio system

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F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

Hello guys,

My legs fatigue, with lactic acid buildup, etc before i even get close to my max heart rate. I'm leg limited. So, what should i be doing? Long rides around sweet spot to train the lactic acid clearance or hard intervals?

Thanks in advance for any tips.

hlvd
Posts: 438
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2016 4:54 pm

by hlvd

I have the exact opposite problem I'll be having a look to see what the problem is

by Weenie


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Hexsense
Posts: 3254
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Location: USA

by Hexsense

Try to adopt higher cadence and lower gear for a start?

Also, do weight lifting a bit?

petromyzon
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 4:14 pm

by petromyzon

If you are newish to riding then this is likely to get better quite quickly. Ensure that you are using your gears to keep the cadence up. Depends a lot on your fitness but many experienced riders would self-select 90-100rpm or more at threshold.

Weights improve all aspects of cycling performance but if you are fast-twitch dominant and not riding a lot then your time might be used better on the bike.

If you are more experienced then yes, longer blocks of moderate to high torque work (say 20 mins continuous sweetspot at <80rpm) can be used to bring the lactate building rate down. Conversely, short blocks of 1-3mins at high power with long rests would help push it up and so you might want to avoid these.

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

Well, this isn't a cadence problem. Yes, i know about the high cadence thing. This is just a natural limitation in me. So, sweet spot? Ok.

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

F2000 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 3:52 pm
Hello guys,

My legs fatigue, with lactic acid buildup, etc before i even get close to my max heart rate. I'm leg limited. So, what should i be doing? Long rides around sweet spot to train the lactic acid clearance or hard intervals?

Thanks in advance for any tips.
Lactic acid buildup occurs when you pedal at a power output that cannot be sustained aerobically, so your limitation has nothing to do with hard intervals or sweetspot, etc, it is a lack of aerobic fitness.
Your limiting factor is therefore the rate at which you cells can convert glucose and fat to energy aerobically and that takes mitochondria.
Mitochrondria are developed with time in the saddle riding at Z2

There is a huge thread here on WW where several members go into the science and is a great read and well worth the time to go through the whole lot
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=155915

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

F2000 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 3:52 pm
Hello guys,

My legs fatigue, with lactic acid buildup, etc before i even get close to my max heart rate. I'm leg limited. So, what should i be doing? Long rides around sweet spot to train the lactic acid clearance or hard intervals?

Thanks in advance for any tips.
The highlighted portion seems dubious. "Leg fatigue" could mean a lot of things.

Lactic acid buildup is an entirely different thing from muscular fatigue. The former is a byproduct of a lack of oxygen, as your body produces lactate to breakdown glucose for energy production compared to using oxygen. And then the same lactic acid acts as a "blocker" than restricts further glucose breakdown, hence, you feel stiff, lack of power even though your heart rate is going down. Your body can adapt to "recovering" from this state of, shall we call it, "lactate shock" quickly, or becoming more fit aerobically so you can rely on "less" oxygen for the same amount of work, so your body doesn't panic and start pumping out lactate to breakdown glucose.

Muscular fatigue is essentially your muscle fibers being weak, or you not having sufficient fibers. Exercise will result in tears to your muscle fibers. You're basically causing injury to your muscle fibers. The more fibers you have, it takes more work to injure all of your fibers. The stronger fibers you have, it requires a greater level of work to injury your fibers. More fibers typically means that you become bigger (but not always, especially if you are overweight, then your muscle mass grows but you get smaller because you are losing comparatively more fat, which is less dense and takes up more volume than muscle). You need to work on both number of fibers, and strengthening your existing fibers. You can also change the ratio of Type I vs. Type II (slow vs. fast twitch).

All of this is greatly limited by your genes and age, especially the muscle part. The lactic threshold is limited by your genetic lung capacity and heart muscles. And training overall is limited by your body's genetic ability to adapt and recover from training. But you can overcome some of these genetic limitations to a great extent with smart training, proper diet and rest. But you have to accurately identify your weaknesses first, and make meaningful improvements that target these weakenesses.

So for you, you need to identify what's causing your leg fatigue - is it muscle tears, or is it lactic acid? When your legs start feeling stiff, what is your HR? If it's high (as a percentage of MaxHR), then you are probably dealing with lactic acid. If it's low, you are probably dealing with muscle fatigue. (Your heartrate 10-15 minutes after your legs feel stiff is a poor indication, because either lactic acid concentration or muscle fatigue will prevent your ability to achieve a high HR simply because your muscles are no longer capable of producing sufficient work to require high oxygen utilization). Imagine doing 50 bicep curls to muscle failure using a moderate weight. After 1 minute, can you do 5 curls using a higher weight? Of course not. Your heart rate won't even get high, because of muscle injury or what people call "muscle failure". This has nothing to do with lactic acid.

Final point - your body can recover from lactic acidosis fairly quickly, but only if you didn't go overboard. Usually recovery takes minutes, sometimes severak hours, but if you really screw up, 1-2 days. That's why it's critical to slow down when you feel your body crossing the lactate threshold - otherwise, you risk cutting your current session short, and may also hurt your ability to train the next day. Lactic acidosis is terrible for your muscular recovery and consistent training, so unless you are raising or intentionally doing a very hard session, don't stay above your lactate threshold very long. However, your body takes far longer to recover from muscular fatigue. Up to 2-3 days is common after an intense session. More if you really pushed it and nearly injured yourself. Injury, well that can take weeks or months.
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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

F2000 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 3:52 pm
Hello guys,

My legs fatigue, with lactic acid buildup, etc before i even get close to my max heart rate. I'm leg limited. So, what should i be doing? Long rides around sweet spot to train the lactic acid clearance or hard intervals?

Thanks in advance for any tips.
I almost never get close to HRmax, even in races. It takes a specific set of circumstances to do so.

You're not going to hit HRmax doing a max aerobic effort or a barely anaerobic effort.
You're not going to hit HRmax if you sprint starting from <Z3 HR.
You're not leg-limited, just knowledge limited.

Ride 2-3min at like 102% threshold, then max sprint for 25-30s.

kode54
Posts: 3740
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 9:39 pm

by kode54

If lactic buildup is an issue, try using a bicarb lotion such as PR Lotion. It absorbs lactic and neutralizes it. Works for me...and now, my cardio can't keep up. LOL.
And if you have other issues with blood flow to legs...try something that dialates your blood vessels, like Beetelite powder or Swiss RX Nitric Oxide. Take it before your ride.
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F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:35 am
F2000 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 3:52 pm
Hello guys,

My legs fatigue, with lactic acid buildup, etc before i even get close to my max heart rate. I'm leg limited. So, what should i be doing? Long rides around sweet spot to train the lactic acid clearance or hard intervals?

Thanks in advance for any tips.
The highlighted portion seems dubious. "Leg fatigue" could mean a lot of things.

Lactic acid buildup is an entirely different thing from muscular fatigue. The former is a byproduct of a lack of oxygen, as your body produces lactate to breakdown glucose for energy production compared to using oxygen. And then the same lactic acid acts as a "blocker" than restricts further glucose breakdown, hence, you feel stiff, lack of power even though your heart rate is going down. Your body can adapt to "recovering" from this state of, shall we call it, "lactate shock" quickly, or becoming more fit aerobically so you can rely on "less" oxygen for the same amount of work, so your body doesn't panic and start pumping out lactate to breakdown glucose.

Muscular fatigue is essentially your muscle fibers being weak, or you not having sufficient fibers. Exercise will result in tears to your muscle fibers. You're basically causing injury to your muscle fibers. The more fibers you have, it takes more work to injure all of your fibers. The stronger fibers you have, it requires a greater level of work to injury your fibers. More fibers typically means that you become bigger (but not always, especially if you are overweight, then your muscle mass grows but you get smaller because you are losing comparatively more fat, which is less dense and takes up more volume than muscle). You need to work on both number of fibers, and strengthening your existing fibers. You can also change the ratio of Type I vs. Type II (slow vs. fast twitch).

All of this is greatly limited by your genes and age, especially the muscle part. The lactic threshold is limited by your genetic lung capacity and heart muscles. And training overall is limited by your body's genetic ability to adapt and recover from training. But you can overcome some of these genetic limitations to a great extent with smart training, proper diet and rest. But you have to accurately identify your weaknesses first, and make meaningful improvements that target these weakenesses.

So for you, you need to identify what's causing your leg fatigue - is it muscle tears, or is it lactic acid? When your legs start feeling stiff, what is your HR? If it's high (as a percentage of MaxHR), then you are probably dealing with lactic acid. If it's low, you are probably dealing with muscle fatigue. (Your heartrate 10-15 minutes after your legs feel stiff is a poor indication, because either lactic acid concentration or muscle fatigue will prevent your ability to achieve a high HR simply because your muscles are no longer capable of producing sufficient work to require high oxygen utilization). Imagine doing 50 bicep curls to muscle failure using a moderate weight. After 1 minute, can you do 5 curls using a higher weight? Of course not. Your heart rate won't even get high, because of muscle injury or what people call "muscle failure". This has nothing to do with lactic acid.

Final point - your body can recover from lactic acidosis fairly quickly, but only if you didn't go overboard. Usually recovery takes minutes, sometimes severak hours, but if you really screw up, 1-2 days. That's why it's critical to slow down when you feel your body crossing the lactate threshold - otherwise, you risk cutting your current session short, and may also hurt your ability to train the next day. Lactic acidosis is terrible for your muscular recovery and consistent training, so unless you are raising or intentionally doing a very hard session, don't stay above your lactate threshold very long. However, your body takes far longer to recover from muscular fatigue. Up to 2-3 days is common after an intense session. More if you really pushed it and nearly injured yourself. Injury, well that can take weeks or months.
Many thanks on your excelent explantion. Now, that you talk about it, sure i do suffer from lactic acid buildup, but i think the main problems is mucle fatigue. So far, i have done only slow miles HRT zones 2-3. But i do know, from the previous year, that muscle fatigue is the main problem. Now, i ask, what should i do now to train for that?

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

Hexsense wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 7:06 pm
Try to adopt higher cadence and lower gear for a start?

Also, do weight lifting a bit?
Already pump iron :)

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

Andrew69 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:52 am
F2000 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 3:52 pm
Hello guys,

My legs fatigue, with lactic acid buildup, etc before i even get close to my max heart rate. I'm leg limited. So, what should i be doing? Long rides around sweet spot to train the lactic acid clearance or hard intervals?

Thanks in advance for any tips.
Lactic acid buildup occurs when you pedal at a power output that cannot be sustained aerobically, so your limitation has nothing to do with hard intervals or sweetspot, etc, it is a lack of aerobic fitness.
Your limiting factor is therefore the rate at which you cells can convert glucose and fat to energy aerobically and that takes mitochondria.
Mitochrondria are developed with time in the saddle riding at Z2

There is a huge thread here on WW where several members go into the science and is a great read and well worth the time to go through the whole lot
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=155915
Thanks for your reply. So, what if instead of lactic buildup, the problem is muscle fatigue?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Again, you are knowledge limited. Your OP was based on the assumption that you should be getting close to HRmax during training. That is not really true. HRmax is not a training zone or target, it’s just an irrelevant number. LTHR and training it higher? That’s a real target.

There’s any number of things you should be doing...but mostly I’d say do the standard 2 intense workouts and fill the rest of your free time with as much Z2 as you can stomach.

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:44 pm
Again, you are knowledge limited. Your OP was based on the assumption that you should be getting close to HRmax during training. That is not really true. HRmax is not a training zone or target, it’s just an irrelevant number. LTHR and training it higher? That’s a real target.

There’s any number of things you should be doing...but mostly I’d say do the standard 2 intense workouts and fill the rest of your free time with as much Z2 as you can stomach.
Ok, i meant that legs fail much sooner than cardio system. What should i do on those 2 intense workouts? 20 minute intervals? 5 minute? 2 minute?

by Weenie


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TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12443
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

F2000 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:50 pm

Ok, i meant that legs fail much sooner than cardio system. What should i do on those 2 intense workouts? 20 minute intervals? 5 minute? 2 minute?

Rarely 20min. ~4-5min efforts are great for sharp aerobic gains in a short amount of time.

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