Legs fatigue before cardio system

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Andrew69
Posts: 593
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by Andrew69

F2000 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:39 pm
Andrew69 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 5:52 am
F2000 wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 3:52 pm
Hello guys,

My legs fatigue, with lactic acid buildup, etc before i even get close to my max heart rate. I'm leg limited. So, what should i be doing? Long rides around sweet spot to train the lactic acid clearance or hard intervals?

Thanks in advance for any tips.
Lactic acid buildup occurs when you pedal at a power output that cannot be sustained aerobically, so your limitation has nothing to do with hard intervals or sweetspot, etc, it is a lack of aerobic fitness.
Your limiting factor is therefore the rate at which you cells can convert glucose and fat to energy aerobically and that takes mitochondria.
Mitochrondria are developed with time in the saddle riding at Z2

There is a huge thread here on WW where several members go into the science and is a great read and well worth the time to go through the whole lot
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=155915
Thanks for your reply. So, what if instead of lactic buildup, the problem is muscle fatigue?
Six of one, half dozen of another
Time in the saddle at Z2 and lots of it
"A rising tide lifts all boats" so work on the aerobic base and everything else above that will also increase

Go and read that long thread
It is well worth the time and you will learn a lot

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

kode54 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:44 pm
If lactic buildup is an issue, try using a bicarb lotion such as PR Lotion. It absorbs lactic and neutralizes it. Works for me...and now, my cardio can't keep up. LOL.
And if you have other issues with blood flow to legs...try something that dialates your blood vessels, like Beetelite powder or Swiss RX Nitric Oxide. Take it before your ride.
I'm sorry but I am shocked that this is being promoted in this day and age (it's based on 1980s science)...this is literally snake oil. Bicarb lotions have been shown to have absolutely zero effect on anything (same goes for any topical lotion or cream of any sort, other than maybe sun screen).

Ingesting sodium bicarbonate may be slightly more effective, but comes with serious GI side effects and so should be avoided like the plague.

Seriously, please don't recommend sodium bicarbonate to others.

The studies on nitrate supplements (such as beet root juice) is also inconclusive, with several studies showing absolutely no improvement at all from ingesting nitrates.

Fortunately most supplements are harmless and cause mild side effects at worst. Others have been shown to cause cancer or other serious health issues over time. Please. Do your research before ingesting any products for sports enhancement. Don't put anything into your body to enhance performance unless you are an elite athlete and the research shows it is safe and the results are significant. Even something as seemingly innocuous as caffeine pills can be hazardous to your health.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Thu May 27, 2021 5:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

F2000 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:36 pm

Many thanks on your excelent explantion. Now, that you talk about it, sure i do suffer from lactic acid buildup, but i think the main problems is mucle fatigue. So far, i have done only slow miles HRT zones 2-3. But i do know, from the previous year, that muscle fatigue is the main problem. Now, i ask, what should i do now to train for that?
You need to break it down. Some of the things you are working on:

1) Aerobic fitness (this has many subcategories such as stroke volume, oxygen uptake, capillarization, mitochondria, so I won't discuss here)
2) Flexibility/weight/biomechanics (I won't discuss this here either, whole separate topic)
3) Muscle fiber endurance (will discuss here)
4) Muscle fiber count (will discuss here)
5) Muscle fiber type (will discuss here)

Muscle fiber endurance

-Goal: Increase the resilience of the muscle fibers you already have
-How: Stimulation of these muscle fibers. Basically this means lots of slow miles (short, hard rides has the effect of building excess type 2 fibers and also jeopardizes your aerobic fitness). You want to break down your existing fibers, and then through the process of repair, they regenerate but stronger (adaptation). To achieve this, every ride needs to be of sufficient duration/intensity to cause the breakdown. But this overlaps with your work on aerobic fitness as well, so you have to be strategic in allocating your time and intensity. If you focus solely on muscle endurance (such as going too hard for too long), you may jeopardize your aerobic fitness, and vice versa.

Muscle fiber count

-Goal: This is increasing the volume of your muscle fibers (both type 1 and type 2).
-How: Your body generates more muscle fibers when it decides it needs more muscle mass to complete work (critically, this ties into fiber endurance - when your body can no longer do more work based on your current fiber endurance level, it builds more fibers...see the link? So if you have really poor fiber endurance, you may be building excess fiber count, and these fibers will also be weak. BUT, there is a benefit to starting off with a higher fiber count, so once you develop their endurance, you end up with, net, a larger number of high endurance fibers). This is an adaptation to stress that your body recognizes that based on your current number of muscle fibers, it is not capable of effectively doing the work. There are two elements here. You need more type 2 fibers for hard segments such as climbs...for this, hard riding (don't focus on cadence), such as intervals or climbs if you are an experienced rider. If you are untrained or poorly trained, weight training is the ideal way to "catch up" on your type 2 muscular strength. 4-6 reps x 6 sets of squats to failure, maybe 2-3 times a week, for maybe 2 months, will really help in getting you up to speed. For type 1 muscle fiber count, longer, hardish rides (such as sweetspot).

Muscle fiber type
Unless you are in the velodrome, you need more Type 1 muscle fibers. You can alter the proportion of your muscle fibers with specific training. This means lots of long slow riding. If you go too hard too often, you end up building more Type 2 fibers.

These three elements should be packaged together in a training regime that targets all 3 elements, together with your goals for overall aerobic fitness. You can't only do 1, or 2. A polarized program with 80% low intensity and 20% very high intensity is a general rule of thumb that balances all 3.
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TobinHatesYou
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Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Ingesting 2-3g of beta-alanine daily does help buffer acid buildup without GI distress though the OP is definitely nowhere near the level of fitness where this kind of min-maxing makes sense.

AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

F2000 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:50 pm
Ok, i meant that legs fail much sooner than cardio system. What should i do on those 2 intense workouts? 20 minute intervals? 5 minute? 2 minute?
F2000 how much are you riding now? I'm just guessing but I think you just need to put in more hours.

Hexsense
Posts: 3269
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 5:08 am
Fortunately most supplements are harmless and cause mild side effects at worst. Others have been shown to cause cancer or other serious health issues over time. Please. Do your research before ingesting any products for sports enhancement. Don't put anything into your body to enhance performance unless you are an elite athlete and the research shows it is safe and the results are significant. Even something as seemingly innocuous as caffeine pills can be hazardous to your health.
Since you seems to know things well (or atleast better than me):
Let me ask about safety of...
-250ml of low sodium Tomato juice a day (for anti oxidant).
-HMB and BCAA supplement in water bottle for long ride
-Creatine and Beta Alanine on the day of weight lifting or hard internal training.
I got these recommended as a list. I *think* tomato juice should be fine but not certain about the rest.

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 5:34 am
F2000 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:36 pm

Many thanks on your excelent explantion. Now, that you talk about it, sure i do suffer from lactic acid buildup, but i think the main problems is mucle fatigue. So far, i have done only slow miles HRT zones 2-3. But i do know, from the previous year, that muscle fatigue is the main problem. Now, i ask, what should i do now to train for that?
You need to break it down. Some of the things you are working on:

1) Aerobic fitness (this has many subcategories such as stroke volume, oxygen uptake, capillarization, mitochondria, so I won't discuss here)
2) Flexibility/weight/biomechanics (I won't discuss this here either, whole separate topic)
3) Muscle fiber endurance (will discuss here)
4) Muscle fiber count (will discuss here)
5) Muscle fiber type (will discuss here)

Muscle fiber endurance

-Goal: Increase the resilience of the muscle fibers you already have
-How: Stimulation of these muscle fibers. Basically this means lots of slow miles (short, hard rides has the effect of building excess type 2 fibers and also jeopardizes your aerobic fitness). You want to break down your existing fibers, and then through the process of repair, they regenerate but stronger (adaptation). To achieve this, every ride needs to be of sufficient duration/intensity to cause the breakdown. But this overlaps with your work on aerobic fitness as well, so you have to be strategic in allocating your time and intensity. If you focus solely on muscle endurance (such as going too hard for too long), you may jeopardize your aerobic fitness, and vice versa.

Muscle fiber count

-Goal: This is increasing the volume of your muscle fibers (both type 1 and type 2).
-How: Your body generates more muscle fibers when it decides it needs more muscle mass to complete work (critically, this ties into fiber endurance - when your body can no longer do more work based on your current fiber endurance level, it builds more fibers...see the link? So if you have really poor fiber endurance, you may be building excess fiber count, and these fibers will also be weak. BUT, there is a benefit to starting off with a higher fiber count, so once you develop their endurance, you end up with, net, a larger number of high endurance fibers). This is an adaptation to stress that your body recognizes that based on your current number of muscle fibers, it is not capable of effectively doing the work. There are two elements here. You need more type 2 fibers for hard segments such as climbs...for this, hard riding (don't focus on cadence), such as intervals or climbs if you are an experienced rider. If you are untrained or poorly trained, weight training is the ideal way to "catch up" on your type 2 muscular strength. 4-6 reps x 6 sets of squats to failure, maybe 2-3 times a week, for maybe 2 months, will really help in getting you up to speed. For type 1 muscle fiber count, longer, hardish rides (such as sweetspot).

Muscle fiber type
Unless you are in the velodrome, you need more Type 1 muscle fibers. You can alter the proportion of your muscle fibers with specific training. This means lots of long slow riding. If you go too hard too often, you end up building more Type 2 fibers.

These three elements should be packaged together in a training regime that targets all 3 elements, together with your goals for overall aerobic fitness. You can't only do 1, or 2. A polarized program with 80% low intensity and 20% very high intensity is a general rule of thumb that balances all 3.
Thanks again for your explanations. So, the old recipe still goes. A base should be built and then hard intervals introduced without stopping the endurance rides and allowing time for recuperation, right?

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:36 am
Ingesting 2-3g of beta-alanine daily does help buffer acid buildup without GI distress though the OP is definitely nowhere near the level of fitness where this kind of min-maxing makes sense.
You're right. Even tough i'm an experienced iron guy, i'm untrainned on the road. Went back to this old love because of the pandemic. Will introduce creatine and beta-alanice when improvements start to stall.

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

AJS914 wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 2:26 pm
F2000 wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 10:50 pm
Ok, i meant that legs fail much sooner than cardio system. What should i do on those 2 intense workouts? 20 minute intervals? 5 minute? 2 minute?
F2000 how much are you riding now? I'm just guessing but I think you just need to put in more hours.
You're right. I started late this year, so i started building a base one month and a half ago. But i know from previous year my limitations.

Just 3 rides per week and 3 gym sessions. The rides
- 1h - 1.15h
- 1.30h - 2h
- 3h (started this long one recently)

F2000
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:09 pm

by F2000

Hexsense wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 7:45 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 5:08 am
Fortunately most supplements are harmless and cause mild side effects at worst. Others have been shown to cause cancer or other serious health issues over time. Please. Do your research before ingesting any products for sports enhancement. Don't put anything into your body to enhance performance unless you are an elite athlete and the research shows it is safe and the results are significant. Even something as seemingly innocuous as caffeine pills can be hazardous to your health.
Since you seems to know things well (or atleast better than me):
Let me ask about safety of...
-250ml of low sodium Tomato juice a day (for anti oxidant).
-HMB and BCAA supplement in water bottle for long ride
-Creatine and Beta Alanine on the day of weight lifting or hard internal training.
I got these recommended as a list. I *think* tomato juice should be fine but not certain about the rest.
I think from all those supplements, only creatine does something for real. At least on the gym. The rest is just supps companies propaganda. Given that you have a healthy diet.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12456
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

F2000 wrote:
Thu May 27, 2021 9:29 pm

I think from all those supplements, only creatine does something for real. At least on the gym. The rest is just supps companies propaganda. Given that you have a healthy diet.

Creatine doesn't do much for endurance athletes unless you specifically want to build your sprint power (and are doing off-bike leg work.) Beta-alanine is much more effective because it truly acts as a lactic acid buffer. You can really start to feel the tingling in your legs when you start pushing those anaerobic watts.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

I am anti-supplement for all things unless you cannot for whatever reason maintain a healthy diet or you have a health condition. I used to work with high school and later University athletes, and recommending supplements to students under your care was a quick way to get fired and possibly criminally prosecuted for endangerment. I know a world class coach who got fired and sued by parents when it got leaked he was prescribing a cocktail or legal supplements to his elite athletes, which included a national champion and Olympian.

In my program we sent a few kids to the Olympics (one medalled) and one kid to the World Tour (he is currently tearing it up) without any supplements other than giving good nutritional advice through a nutritionist and prescribing lots of rest and recovery. Maybe they take stuff in their professional careers, but again unless you are at elite or cusp of elite status with medical staff closely monitoring you, I think supplements are morally ambiguous and potentially dangerous.

That being said I know several of our sprinters did take creatine on their own. And a few of the endurance guys experimented with it and amino acids for recovery after a hard workout. Did it work? I am not convinced at all. We had a coach that was insistent on protein shakes. Looked like it did nothing but make our athletes fat. We stopped that pretty quickly.

Beta alanine may be helpful at very specific durations of intense efforts. But keep in mind lactic acidosis is your body's defense mechanism to prevent excessive damage. Circumventing a natural defense mechanism of your body raises red flags for me, but I have not heard of anything bad resulting from BA use.
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