20 mins FTP test average heart rate compared to LTHR?

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Shrike
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by Shrike

Have you even compared these. Are they close or do you usually find there a certain % difference between them if paced well?

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Shrike wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 3:13 pm
Have you even compared these. Are they close or do you usually find there a certain % difference between them if paced well?
We discussed this in the Zone 3 thread. This was studied and it can differ by up to 20bpm or so in a lab setting, which is such a high degree of variance to be completely useless as a form of comparison.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

You can’t take the whole 20min average because it takes around 3-4 minutes for most people to get anywhere close to LTHR during a properly paced test. If you take the last 10min average, it will probably be close.

Shrike
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by Shrike

It should always be over though you’d reckon if you took the last 10mins of the FTP test average? We’re you guys giving any personal examples in that Z3 thread for comparison?

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Shrike wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:21 pm
It should always be over though you’d reckon if you took the last 10mins of the FTP test average? We’re you guys giving any personal examples in that Z3 thread for comparison?
Nope - my guess is that few people on this forum have tested their LT so there would be no way of knowing.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 1:33 am

Nope - my guess is that few people on this forum have tested their LT so there would be no way of knowing.

If you ride hard enough at all kinds of intervals, then apps like WKO5 can pretty reliably model your PDC and correlate it to your HR. Then it's just a matter of finding an inflection point in your PDC and the associated HR. This should work well enough for most of the population, like within 1bpm for most.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:53 am

If you ride hard enough at all kinds of intervals, then apps like WKO5 can pretty reliably model your PDC and correlate it to your HR. Then it's just a matter of finding an inflection point in your PDC and the associated HR. This should work well enough for most of the population, like within 1bpm for most.
With new technologies like this coming soon, I hope we can begin taking the guesswork out of this. I can imagine amateur teams and clubs buying these devices and testing their members, since the mobile ear pricking testing kits haven't really caught on in the amateur community (which doesn't make sense to me b/c it's just the cost of one pair of bibs!).

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210 ... sweat.aspx
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Cycomanic
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by Cycomanic

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:11 pm
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:53 am

If you ride hard enough at all kinds of intervals, then apps like WKO5 can pretty reliably model your PDC and correlate it to your HR. Then it's just a matter of finding an inflection point in your PDC and the associated HR. This should work well enough for most of the population, like within 1bpm for most.
With new technologies like this coming soon, I hope we can begin taking the guesswork out of this. I can imagine amateur teams and clubs buying these devices and testing their members, since the mobile ear pricking testing kits haven't really caught on in the amateur community (which doesn't make sense to me b/c it's just the cost of one pair of bibs!).

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210 ... sweat.aspx
I think one of the reasons they have not caught on is that LT is just not such a useful measure. There's still quite a bit of debate about what (if anything) it corresponds to (IIRC there's been several studies that show that traditional LT measurements have significant discreptancy from MLSS for example). You are likely just as well off measuring FTP/CP with some protocol and using that for your training.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

You still need to prick your ear to determine MLSS. Agree that it may be a better metric than pure lactic threshold. Ear pricking among pro runners and pro cyclists is widespread. On the road during specific training days team cars will be waiting up the road to ear prick their riders as they pass through.

Once the sweat based lactic acid test device comes out for commercial use, I think it will become as ubiquitous as power meters - no more ramp testing no more stressful FTP tests required. Just do 1 interval in the middle of a tide, or 1 hard climb until your heart rate gets near max and you will have a good measurement. This will have some interesting implications on the use of FTP zones going forward, if amateurs suddenly have easy access to reliable MLSS and LT data on the go. At a minimum, I think we will see more accurate and reliable FTP settings as the data pool grows exponentially, and through the correlation of lactic data to power, people will have power zones which are more in line with their actual abilities.
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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:21 pm
Once the sweat based lactic acid test device comes out for commercial use, I think it will become as ubiquitous as power meters -
Say what??
Any idea when the device would be commercially available?

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Cycomanic wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 8:17 am

I think one of the reasons they have not caught on is that LT is just not such a useful measure. There's still quite a bit of debate about what (if anything) it corresponds to (IIRC there's been several studies that show that traditional LT measurements have significant discreptancy from MLSS for example). You are likely just as well off measuring FTP/CP with some protocol and using that for your training.

And I think all the next-generation training tools have "good enough" modeling whether it's Garmin/FirstBeat, WKO5, Xert or whatever.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Andrew69 wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:39 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Apr 27, 2021 2:21 pm
Once the sweat based lactic acid test device comes out for commercial use, I think it will become as ubiquitous as power meters -
Say what??
Any idea when the device would be commercially available?
There are already several prototypes that are being tested in a controlled indoors environment. I'm not an engineer but the technology seems fairly simple thus far, consisting of an electronic sensor that is strapped to the wrist, tricep or calf muscle. Sensor sensitivity is the biggest issue. Early testing from several years ago showed high accuracy up to 1 mmol/L, trailing off afterwards. I think the sensors are now accurate up to around 4 mmol/L, which is where most average people's lactate threshold will be. We need full accuracy past this point (imagine a HR monitor that is not accurate past say 170bpm...it would still be useful, but not ideal).

I believe technology wise, we are about 1 year off from wearable biosensor watches that can provide real time lactic acid data that is accurate up to 4-6 mmol/L, which would be sufficient for the vast majority of amateur athletes across all sports. Maybe a bit longer for higher thresholds.

Part of the delay is, the development seems to be focused on a "real time" device, i.e., too much enginnering. So I think they are working towards basically "another HR monitor" so you can see your lactic acid levels on some screen at any given time, so there are also battery life issues.

I think they should just focus on the sensor technology, and have enough battery life for maybe 15-20 minutes. Turn it on once you're ready for testing, and turn it off once you've gone gradually through the range of intensity from a well-warmed up state to maximum effort over say 5 minutes. You can go home, check the graph and when you see your lactic acid level start spiking, you have your lactate threshold. And you can do this once every two weeks or so to keep updated.

But I suppose the "real money" is in a holistic, overall biosensor product that tracks everything real time for hours on end.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:13 am, edited 2 times in total.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:58 am

And I think all the next-generation training tools have "good enough" modeling whether it's Garmin/FirstBeat, WKO5, Xert or whatever.
I'm sure you will be the first in line to buy a sweat-based lactic acid sensor when it becomes available :D

Speaking of which - I am already imagining new lactate threshold:power based zones. Perhaps the entire FTP algorithim can be re-worked to coincide with lactic acid levels rather than the FTP testing protocols.

Heart rate sensors are good and all, but the missing piece of the puzzle for the last 20-30 years among amateurs has always been lactate threshold. This is the "no fly zone" or "the point of no return" which is so important in endurance training, and also a very good marker for "race pace." But amateurs have never had reliable access to this testing, so we've come up with all sorts of convuluted formulas and guesswork, and have always struggled with overtraining in training, and overpacing in races. A wearable watch that beeps out alarms when you're out training, or running a marathon, that is available for $300-$500, could be a game changer in the way we train and race. And I think whoever brings to market a lightweight, cool looking device coupled with good analytic software that shows how long you can withstand varying levels of lactic acid in your system will make a fortune among the amateur endurance sports community.

Whatever the case, online training forums are going to get real interesting in the next few years, and it will probably take 5-10 years before the dust really settles. Should be fun!
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