Aerobic endurance outpacing muscle endurance?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Hello all, looking for some advice to continue building up.

Some background on me. Used to be a power lifter in my early-mid 20's, never been an endurance athlete (like ever in my life) until I started cycling 3 years ago. As you can probably imagine, I started out as a fairly anaerobically biased cyclist. Over the past couple of years, I've devoted most of my training to aerobic base, with a fair bit of vo2 training and some AC training. I rarely (maybe 1x/month) do sprint sessions. My sprint power has and continues to be one of my strengths, so I devote less time to it.

The last few long rides (3+ hours) I find myself at a point after about 2.5 hours where my breathing starts relaxing and my HR drops, but my muscles seem to be fatigued to the point where they are the limiting factor in my power output. It's a really strange feeling when you're pushing pretty much as hard as you think you can sustain, yet still feel like you'd be able to hold a conversation.

Would this be a nutrition thing? Do I need to just build muscle? Should I be in the gym? Help!
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

Keep both lifting and riding.
You started with high amount of type IIx (emergency fast twitch) fiber. Type IIx fiber is in everyone. It's natural's way to make sure you have explosive power in emergency. It is very powerful but fatigue fast.

Ultra Endurance sports (marathon runner/ epic long ride) would make you develop more type I fiber.
So, it's duality where you have muscle fibers cover two extreme (easy and sprint) but void in the middle. If you do easy enough, you have type I fiber that will last all day long. But suddenly after a certain power threshold that type I fiber can't cope, you use type IIx fiber which fatigue fast too. Then after type IIx fiber fatigue leaving type I fiber to work alone (and drop your power), you'll see a drop in oxidative stress because type I fiber is very efficient and won't tax much on your breathing.

If you keep lifting and also do endurance training, Rather than getting rid of type IIx or keep it as emergency power which is not useful for non sprinting situation, your body would convert your type IIx fiber to type IIa fiber (intermediately fast twitch) which is a lot more fatigue resistant than type IIx, and can tolerate high power which type I fiber couldn't. For kind of strength exercise to do: If going to gym is not convenient, consider buying resistant bands to do strength training at home.

PS. maybe, I don't know, maybe your type I fiber could also get more training by simply workout more than 3-4 hours. At that point where other fiber fatigue out then you sure work on slow twitch muscle.

EDIT: typo.
Last edited by Hexsense on Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Thanks for this excellent information. So your recommendation would be to continue to strength train and also ride, but perhaps continue on more long efforts? I've done several 4-6 hour rides in the past, but I typically pace my effort slower and usually stop every so often for some nutrition. My last ride I attempted to hold my entire effort near the low end of sweet spot and I focused on pedaling near constantly and eliminate stopping (ate while riding this every time on this one).
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

Yes, do that.
And also consider doing some interval training where it's too hard to do with just type I fiber, and long enough that it penalize type IIx fiber's inefficiency just months before your long event/ race. This can quickly boost your muscle endurance.

Some 4-6 sets of 6-15 minutes over-under swing between 95-105% FTP (for example, 1 minute at 95% FTP and 2 minute at 105% ftp repeat 4 time to make it 12 minutes before a 5 minute rest) will work.

JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Hexsense wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 9:55 pm
Yes, do that.
And also consider doing some interval training where it's too hard to do with just type I fiber, and long enough that it penalize type IIx fiber's inefficiency just months before your long event/ race. This can quickly boost your muscle endurance.

Some 4-6 sets of 6-15 minutes over-under swing between 95-105% FTP (for example, 1 minute at 95% FTP and 2 minute at 105% ftp repeat 4 time to make it 12 minutes before a 5 minute rest) will work.
This is great information. When I do my vo2max sessions I typically do 2 minute blocks, but I usually do 110% and 80% in 2 minutes over and 2 under 5x, twice. So I really only end up with 20 minutes of "work" during my hour sessions.

Maybe I'll try either extending those sessions to include another full block, or shorten the rest period to increase the over time, and push to exhaustion to hope my muscles adapt.
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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

JMeinholdt wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:48 am
So I really only end up with 20 minutes of "work" during my hour sessions.
There is nothing wrong with that.
Hard intervals also tax the CNS and that can be very hard to recover from if done too often

Have a look at Ronnestad intervals
19.5 minutes of work total, with 30 seconds on @ VO2 max power (or slightly above if you have a high anerobic contribution), then 15 seconds off @50% VO2 max
3 sets of 13 intervals with 3 min recovery @ 50% between each set of intervals

First set will seem reasonable, second will be hard and the last will have you digging deep

Several studies have shown it can be superior to 4 x 5 min intervals (I say can be because everyone responds differently and for one person in their study it was worse) and more importanly it gets you to vo2 max faster and holds you there longer than traditional longer intervals meaning you actually spend more time training vo2 max

scapie
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by scapie

Gday J,

I just had a quick skim on your strava seen as you have it linked.

As per all the posts I’ve put on the training board, this is my opinion (that point cannot be stressed enough), but I’d say youre just not that fit… sorry bruh. After 2.5-3hrs you’re tired because your aerobic engine is just not large enough atm.

In the 3 years you’ve been riding you’ve ridden around 22k. you had a good year last year, esp considering the circumstances, but you probably need another 20k in the legs for the sort of aerobic engine you’re looking for.

When it comes to training a lot of talk is far too complicated, I’ve mentioned it before, but I think that people who are still in the honeymoon phase (just generalising) of cycling are searching for an easier or faster way to get fitter. That’s just not how it works. To get good at cycling you need to have a good aerobic engine and to build that it takes time. There’s no secrets or shortcuts to it unfortunately. Actually, the one exception to that is raw natural talent.

So if you wanted my suggestion firstly I would look to increase your ride volume. And secondly I’d take a step back from complicated training theories and focus on really hitting the basics. Those being volume at low intensity, consistency and rest. I would develop a routine which fits around your life commitments, something that is achievable to maintain over a long period of time, say 3-6 months, and then I would rinse and repeat that week in week out. Its not glamourous, but its how you get the job done.

Happy to discuss more here or if you want to pm me I can go into it in more detail

TheRich
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by TheRich

JMeinholdt wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:02 pm
Hello all, looking for some advice to continue building up.

Some background on me. Used to be a power lifter in my early-mid 20's, never been an endurance athlete (like ever in my life) until I started cycling 3 years ago. As you can probably imagine, I started out as a fairly anaerobically biased cyclist. Over the past couple of years, I've devoted most of my training to aerobic base, with a fair bit of vo2 training and some AC training. I rarely (maybe 1x/month) do sprint sessions. My sprint power has and continues to be one of my strengths, so I devote less time to it.

The last few long rides (3+ hours) I find myself at a point after about 2.5 hours where my breathing starts relaxing and my HR drops, but my muscles seem to be fatigued to the point where they are the limiting factor in my power output. It's a really strange feeling when you're pushing pretty much as hard as you think you can sustain, yet still feel like you'd be able to hold a conversation.

Would this be a nutrition thing? Do I need to just build muscle? Should I be in the gym? Help!
What and how much are you eating? Seems like a relatively easy thing to experiment with.

Could be a pacing issue as well, those big power surges take a toll over time. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to bang out a reasonably quick three hour ride...you just have to ride smart.
Last edited by TheRich on Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

I would say intervals and 2+ hour rides are the last thing you need.

And you being unable to get your HR up after 2.5 hours but your legs having no power just means you are not aerobically fit, or you went too hard during the 2.5 hours and depleted all of your glycogen and/or accumulated too much lactic acid. All symptomatic of not being fit or going too hard.

Could you repeat that 2.5 hour ride the very next day at exactly the same power? If not, again, you went too hard.

So when you say you devote most of your time to your aerobic base, it sounds like you are doing the exact opposite. Try putting on a heart rate monitor and let us know where your HR average was.

Also, sprinters and people who devoted their early years to developing their fast-twitch fiberes often struggle to develop their slow-twitch fibers (as well as their energy consumption). Their bodies are trained to rely on the fast-twitch fibers as much as possible. You may be well down this path already, but you need(ed) to go slow and easy for a long time to get your body to eliminate your fast-twitch fibers and build more slow-twitch (and strenghten them too), and to retrain your body to rely less on muscle glycogen for fuel. This "reset" period should have taken you at least a couple of months of no hard riding/lifting whatsoever. If your leg muscles are still huge, therein may lie your problem.
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maxim809
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by maxim809

Based on the title & first paragraph I thought this was going the direction of fast twitch/Type II'er having invested years adapting into slow twitch, and trying to figure out what do next.

But based on the symptoms described in the 2nd paragraph this seems more to do with durability and stamina in those +2hr rides.

I think Hexsense summarized what's going on well muscularly. I think other things you can look into are:

1. Glycogen sparing.
2. Understanding the role of glycogen vs fats as energy sources at various cycling intensities.
3. The rate at which your body burns glycogen and fat, at various intensities
4. How much glycogen your body stores, compared to fats.
5. How to replenish glycogen (both on and off the bike).
6. The rate at which glycogen replenishes

I understand these concepts but these aren't in my wheelhouse so I'd rather step aside and let an expert elaborate, or at least leave these here as pointers for things you can research.

Essentially your body only has so much glycogen stored from a well-rested and well-fed state. Let's say about 300~500g. You could be burning at a rate of 2g per minute at an endurance rate (Z2 in 5-zone model), and even more as the demands of your exercise exceed +Z4.

With some back-of-the-napkin math, and considering an outdoor ride consisting of long Z1~Z2, some tempo/threshold work, and a few sprints (basically a Pyramidal distribution) you'll see that you could be glycogen depleted in roughly that 2~3hr time frame if you don't take in any carbs. ~400g starting capacity / 2.5g per min burn rate / 60 min per hour = ~2.66 hours. Oversimplification, but yeah, a "napkin model" similar to your 2.5hr timeframe.

What's one to do? Some ideas (each their own rabbit hole)
1. Consume more carbs on the bike
2. Don't consume carbs: Ride Fasted / train in a glycogen depleted state
3. Increase muscle mass to increase glycogen stores
4. Learn and apply concepts of RER / FatMax (but think very hard before going keto... I don't recommend)
5. Choose wisely when to go hard and when to go "easy" on your rides
6. Do more long rides more often
7. If the issue is depleting too quickly on your group rides... Increase your FTP

Again I'm not an expert... so take all this with a grain of... sugar.

I got to this point and realized I completely ignored stamina, durability, and repeatability... maybe someone else can jump in. Seiler seems obsessed with cardiac drift being a good indicator of endurance durability. Another thumbs up for those long and slow Z2 rides... well, Z1 in a Seiler 3-zone model. :P

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

I think we're all ignoring the elephant in the room here....

"I find myself at a point after about 2.5 hours where my breathing starts relaxing and my HR drops"

If you're on a long slow aerobic ride, why wasn't your breathing relaxed and your HR low to begin with? It seems simple - the guy was riding too hard.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

What’s your CTL?

JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

TheRich wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:23 am
What and how much are you eating? Seems like a relatively easy thing to experiment with.

Could be a pacing issue as well, those big power surges take a toll over time. There's no reason you shouldn't be able to bang out a reasonably quick three hour ride...you just have to ride smart.
In this ride I had a couple gels and two bottles with Skratch superfuel. So about 150g carbs (one whole serving of the superfuel between both bottles). Probably on the low side of what's needed, but I also ate a decent lunch beforehand.

Pacing could be an issue. Like I said, I tried to hold 80-85% FTP for the duration. So it definitely wasn't an EASY effort. There were also several small 2-3 minute climbs during which I held 150+% FTP.
scapie wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:48 am
Gday J,

I just had a quick skim on your strava seen as you have it linked.

As per all the posts I’ve put on the training board, this is my opinion (that point cannot be stressed enough), but I’d say youre just not that fit… sorry bruh. After 2.5-3hrs you’re tired because your aerobic engine is just not large enough atm.

So if you wanted my suggestion firstly I would look to increase your ride volume. And secondly I’d take a step back from complicated training theories and focus on really hitting the basics. Those being volume at low intensity, consistency and rest. I would develop a routine which fits around your life commitments, something that is achievable to maintain over a long period of time, say 3-6 months, and then I would rinse and repeat that week in week out. Its not glamourous, but its how you get the job done.
Thanks! I don't claim to be super fit, by any means. My 5s power is ~17w/kg, 1m is ~ 7.6w/kg, 5m (my weakest spot IMO) is ~4.5w/kg, and my 20m is ~3.9w/kg.

I'm 35, wife and kids, and a full time day job. I typically ride 6-8 hours/week. It's tough to get much more volume than that for me. My fitness isn't much, but I'm fairly competitive locally.

Also, I am not genetically gifted in the athletic arena, so I have to work for all of the gains I get.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:30 am
I would say intervals and 2+ hour rides are the last thing you need.

And you being unable to get your HR up after 2.5 hours but your legs having no power just means you are not aerobically fit, or you went too hard during the 2.5 hours and depleted all of your glycogen and/or accumulated too much lactic acid. All symptomatic of not being fit or going too hard.

Could you repeat that 2.5 hour ride the very next day at exactly the same power? If not, again, you went too hard.

So when you say you devote most of your time to your aerobic base, it sounds like you are doing the exact opposite. Try putting on a heart rate monitor and let us know where your HR average was.
I didn't go easy on that ride. I tried to average 80-85% FTP for the duration. To clarify, the ride I'm referring to was a 3.5 hour ride. I felt great for 2.5 hours of it. If I stopped after 2.5 hours I have no doubt I could repeat it next day. It was the extra ~50 minutes where I felt like my leg muscles were holding me back. I've bonked before, and this wasn't that (at least I don't think so). I was still able to put down 7w/kg for 30 seconds after 3:15 and raise my HR, but my steady state just felt like my legs were worn down.

I wear an HR monitor on every ride. My HRmax is ~210 (my HR usually high), and my average for this ride was 144bpm. Although I know it's lower than actual because I've been going back and forth with Wahoo on accuracy problems with my new Tickr2. My estimate is closer to 150-155bpm average.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 9:09 am
I think we're all ignoring the elephant in the room here....

"I find myself at a point after about 2.5 hours where my breathing starts relaxing and my HR drops"

If you're on a long slow aerobic ride, why wasn't your breathing relaxed and your HR low to begin with? It seems simple - the guy was riding too hard.
To be clear, I never claimed the ride in question was a long slow aerobic ride. Typically, I feel as though my respiratory rate, HR, and muscle fatigue all seem to be in lock step. This ride felt different in that it felt as though the muscle fatigued sooner than I expected in relation to how my respiration and HR felt.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:12 am
What’s your CTL?
I know this is a cardinal sin, but I really only use Strava and Garmin to track my data. Neither of which calculate CTL... So I really don't know.

I appreciate you all helping me out. It seems like there's some conflict on which ways everyone thinks I should go, so I'm just as confused as ever.
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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

There is one thing that is not in conflict in anyone's post:
You need more long hours of easy ride.

The VO2max works I put there is not a magic workout. It's something that might be beneficial do just a while before the race/long event to boost things up, so don't focus on that either.
My main post target the non obvious stuff, like what could happen at your muscle. And one of the possible cure, that assume you have to work in a zone that tax anarobic power slightly (we all do when riding with stronger riders). Then how to make anarobic system way more durable and efficient (by lifting and convert muscle fiber type). Type IIx can only use anarobic energy system and highly inefficient. It doesn't have to be train, everyone have muscles with type IIx fiber naturally. Type IIa can use both aerobic and anarobic, but you have to train it up. If you notice, pretty much all untrained cyclist can sprint pretty well with their natural type IIx fiber ONCE. But trained cyclist with a lot of type IIa fiber have a lot of matches to anarobicly sprint and close the gap repeatedly.

Then, PS in my first post as well as everyone else (other than posts about nutritions) approach another target. To increase your aerobic engine. If your aerobic engine is larger. You rely less on anarobic in the first place.
There after, there is a conflict here: iheartbianchi think you need to stop lifting and eliminate type II fiber and reset your body to rely on type I fiber.
But personally, I don't think you have to do that. You can simply keep lifting (for type IIa fiber) and ride easy for long hours to build aerobic engine together. Rather than pick one and destroy another.

Last edited by Hexsense on Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Hexsense wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:41 pm
There is one thing that is not in conflict in anyone's post:
You need more long hours of easy ride.
Actually, iheartbianchi said the last thing I need is vo2 workouts and 2+ hour rides.

One piece of anecdote is that last year when we had lockdown I was able to up my volume by doing two a day rides (hour interval sessions in the AM or on lunch followed by a really light ride in the evening). Over the ~8 weeks devoted to that I was able to up my FTP by about 15%. I think the interval sessions combined with an hour or two of Z1-Z2 riding in the evenings might have been a good balance of high and low intensity.

I think I'll try doing something similar again, if I can get myself out of bed early enough to be consistent. Unless anyone thinks this definitely isn't a good path forward.

I do have a few races coming up in the next few months (1x crit, 2x RR, possibly 1x TT). I'm also likely to hit some longer gravel races this summer, and I'm signed up for the inaugural BWR Kansas in October. The gravel races are what I need to develop the sustainable power for.
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