Aerobic endurance outpacing muscle endurance?

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CR987
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by CR987

This is really interesting for me, I was always the sprinter, very fast running 100m & 200m but hated jogging and never ran long distance. I would never be able to run a marathon.

I kinda feel the same way as you on the bike. I would guess that you ride pretty hard for those early hours (as I do). Riding slower and well below threshold would be pretty boring for you (as it is for me).
I will basically pace myself to be fully spent after each and every ride whether it be the sprint to work (15km), my midweek rides (60km) or a long weekend ride (100-120km)

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JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Cycomanic wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:06 pm
Sounds like you're still figuring out what you like. I think it's important to remember that in the end it's all about the fun on the bike. I often find discussions on forums like these is very heavily slanted toward the superfocused, superstructured riders who very stricktly follow their training program, have a nutrition plan etc.. I guess it's because people who hang out on cycling forums are very invested in their cycling. So keep in mind to mentally and physically rest, don't let getting on the bike feel like it is chore instead of fun.
Well, to be fair, I like all of it. I'm in the process of figuring out what disciplines I excel at and which I don't. Unfortunately, climbing is typically my favorite and I seem to do well at it. But I live in Kansas and there's a distinct lack of climbing (sustained climbing, at least) around me.

I did actually get a 30 day trial of TrainerRoad. I did their plan builder and intentionally set the volume lower than I can comfortably achieve. My thought is that I can do a mid-level plan and supplement the workouts with slower paced outdoor rides. We'll see how it works out for me after a month.
fruitfly wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:30 pm
To the OP, there is a guy I ride with once a week or so, 50 something, who started cycling last March. He is a former national powerlifting champ, now body builds, is about 220 lbs (100kg), and to the untrained eye has zero body fat. He commutes to work most days a week (~80km/50miles round trip), so that gives him long slow rides. He also comes on a group ride that gives him about 120km. He is in a profession that gets lots of days off, and on those days he combines rides of 80-100km/50-60 miles with Strava KoM hunting (he did a ride recently where he picked off 11 Strava KOM). So the good news is you can be very aerobically fit even as you maintain muscle mass and strength, without an obvious training plan beyond "ride lots" and go hard on Strava segments.
This is great news. I'm not particularly concerned with losing some upper body muscle mass, but it is good to know that it's possible to be successful in doing so.
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:26 am
Power to weight doesn’t matter in most crits...it starts to matter if the crit has a short/sharp hill or is extremely technical with lots of accelerations, but even then I’d say bigger guys generally have an advantage. For 40min crits, you don’t need much volume at all. Even in a 2-hour road race, you can get by with pretty low volume, but of course it will be better if you have more stamina/resilience. You need to be able to do a quality max aerobic or even a aerobic effort after expending 1500kJ. This comes from those long Z1/Z2 rides.
After looking at some power numbers of those I raced against Saturday, it's apparent that they definitely race at a lower w/kg than I do for the same result. Fun, but ultimately, not my strong suit.

I'm hoping to utilize some group ride time to do 2-4 hour Z1/Z2 rides. Most of our groups around here are slow enough paced that I can maintain a low effort. Couple this with 4-5 shorter interval sessions sprinkled in through the week and I'm hoping I can increase the volume enough to see some gains.
CR987 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:28 pm
This is really interesting for me, I was always the sprinter, very fast running 100m & 200m but hated jogging and never ran long distance. I would never be able to run a marathon.

I kinda feel the same way as you on the bike. I would guess that you ride pretty hard for those early hours (as I do). Riding slower and well below threshold would be pretty boring for you (as it is for me).
I will basically pace myself to be fully spent after each and every ride whether it be the sprint to work (15km), my midweek rides (60km) or a long weekend ride (100-120km)
Glad I'm not the only one. I, too, tend to try to pace my rides in such a way to expend my energy by the end. Which usually means that if I pace it too easy early on, I empty the tank towards the end. But I'm going to do my best to stick to structured intervals and EASY rides.

I'd love to hear your techniques and progress as well.
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CR987
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by CR987

JMeinholdt wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 10:13 pm
I'd love to hear your techniques and progress as well.
LOL, I don't have any techniques, I just think we're built differently. This friend of mine does iron man and a yearly 90km RUN called "The Comrades". I couldn't do either in my wildest dreams, I'm just not built for it.
On the other hand our major race of the year is 110km which I did in 2h59min, he did it in 3h40min but also did a (slower) 2nd lap for fun. I was fully spent!

CR987
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by CR987

Marathon runners are super lean, their legs are so thin they basically are a huge pair of lungs powering super lean and efficient muscles (think Chris Froome) . I'm kinda stocky, broad and big muscled and would probably have done well in a velodrome. I'm not sure how possible it is to cross over... I guess that is why you don't see Sagan winning at the mountain top finishes.

scapie
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by scapie

Cord1138 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:03 pm
scapie wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:48 am

So if you wanted my suggestion firstly I would look to increase your ride volume. And secondly I’d take a step back from complicated training theories and focus on really hitting the basics. Those being volume at low intensity, consistency and rest. I would develop a routine which fits around your life commitments, something that is achievable to maintain over a long period of time, say 3-6 months, and then I would rinse and repeat that week in week out. Its not glamourous, but its how you get the job done.

Happy to discuss more here or if you want to pm me I can go into it in more detail

I'd like to hear more as I hope others would as well. Being a relative newcomer, I am happy(as anyone can be :) ) to build my fitness in an unglamorous way.
ok. i will make a topic on some of my thoughts on basic cycling fundamentals.

i made this post a little while ago, viewtopic.php?f=8&t=157108, you might find a couple of points interesting

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

CR987 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 11:47 pm
Marathon runners are super lean, their legs are so thin they basically are a huge pair of lungs powering super lean and efficient muscles (think Chris Froome) . I'm kinda stocky, broad and big muscled and would probably have done well in a velodrome. I'm not sure how possible it is to cross over... I guess that is why you don't see Sagan winning at the mountain top finishes.
If you look at Sagan shirtless, he is actually very lean and some would call even skinny. He only looks stocky because the rest of the peleton is skeletal.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

CR987 wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:28 pm
This is really interesting for me, I was always the sprinter, very fast running 100m & 200m but hated jogging and never ran long distance. I would never be able to run a marathon.

I kinda feel the same way as you on the bike. I would guess that you ride pretty hard for those early hours (as I do). Riding slower and well below threshold would be pretty boring for you (as it is for me).
I will basically pace myself to be fully spent after each and every ride whether it be the sprint to work (15km), my midweek rides (60km) or a long weekend ride (100-120km)
The most important thing is that you are feeling good, having fun and avoiding injury/burn out.

Do you come from a track & field background? I ask because, as you may know, with the exception of the top top 100/200m guys, even the middle distance guys (800m - 5000m) can hammer out very fast 100/200m times. Like a very good collegiate 1500m runner can do dozens of 25s 200m repeats in a session, whereas the 200m specialist would probably do the first 200m in 22s, 2 more at 28s and then complain and stop running :) What I'm trying to say is, you can achieve a terrific balance between maintaining very good speed while also building up your aerobic engine without turning yourself into a skeleton :)

Just taking Michael Woods as an example - terrific cyclist now, but used to be a mid-distance runner through college. Decent leg speed too. He seems to have lost some weight now, but he wasn't exactly the skinniest guy in the peleton.
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CR987
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by CR987

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:16 am
whereas the 200m specialist would probably do the first 200m in 22s, 2 more at 28s and then complain and stop running :)
I'm this guy!
You're right, I am trying to make it fun rather than a hard slog training chore because I don't want to end up hating cycling.
I don't have a PM or HR monitor, I just thought it would all be a bit too crazy.... charging the Di2, HR, PM, Garmin, front light, rear light.
What I have understood from some of the advice on here is to stop doing ALL my rides at just below threshold and do interval training and then some longer rides at an easier pace to prevent what I have now which is legs that are dead 7 days a week.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

CR987 wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:24 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Apr 06, 2021 4:16 am
whereas the 200m specialist would probably do the first 200m in 22s, 2 more at 28s and then complain and stop running :)
I'm this guy!
You're right, I am trying to make it fun rather than a hard slog training chore because I don't want to end up hating cycling.
I don't have a PM or HR monitor, I just thought it would all be a bit too crazy.... charging the Di2, HR, PM, Garmin, front light, rear light.
What I have understood from some of the advice on here is to stop doing ALL my rides at just below threshold and do interval training and then some longer rides at an easier pace to prevent what I have now which is legs that are dead 7 days a week.
That's assuming you decide to do a polarized approach and you have the time to train 4-6 days a week / 6 or more hours a day. HRM helps to keep you from going too hard, a PM helps to remind you how slow you are going (see the difference there? :D )
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customtune
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by customtune

Without intervention we lose ~1% of muscle mass per hear after the age of 50! This can be offset with strength training. It can take just 2 30 min sessions a week. Following your familiar successful fitness build ups of earlier years can begin to be less effective. That’s when strength can become one of the major limiting factors to improvement.


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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

customtune wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:27 pm
Without intervention we lose ~1% of muscle mass per hear after the age of 50! This can be offset with strength training. It can take just 2 30 min sessions a week. Following your familiar successful fitness build ups of earlier years can begin to be less effective. That’s when strength can become one of the major limiting factors to improvement.


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Which can actually be a good thing. A lot of westerners have built up a lot of bulk and muscles in the wrong places for a variety of reasons (such as needing more muscle mass to support overweight body mass around, or playing high intensity sports such as basketball football or even tennis). Big bulky calve muscles are a classic symptom of a poorly adapted endurance athlete. As long as you keep the body fat down, a slimmer, less muscular physique may acrually be beneficial to your cycling!

People often say BMI is a misleading indicator of obesity if youre musclar, but thats sort of missing the point, because you are in fact carrying around a lot of unnecessary muscles in random weird places, oftentimes just to "look" big and strong and appealing to the opposite sex. Nobody needs strong shoulders pecs or biceps in modern society, unless you work in construction or something.
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customtune
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by customtune

Are you telling me people don’t need upper body strength to climb and sprint? Don’t confuse upper body STRENGTH with MASS.

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by maxim809

iheartbianchi wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 5:51 am
A lot of westerners have built up a lot of bulk and muscles in the wrong places for a variety of reasons (such as needing more muscle mass to support overweight body mass around, or playing high intensity sports such as basketball football or even tennis). Big bulky calve muscles are a classic symptom of a poorly adapted endurance athlete.
*Adds to laundry list of all the things I'm doing wrong*

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by iheartbianchi

customtune wrote:
Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:59 pm
Are you telling me people don’t need upper body strength to climb and sprint? Don’t confuse upper body STRENGTH with MASS.
Strength in the colloquial sense of the word is meaningless to endurance athletes. In our sport, when we talk about strength or strength training, we are really talking about muscular endurance and the ability to do hard efforts (i.e., at threshold pace or intervals) for a reasonable duration of time. Sprinting would not be classified as "strength training" or "requiring strength", but rather, would be a distinct category called "speed."

If all this sounds argumentative, there is logic behind it. Traditionally when we think of "Strength" we think strong, powerful. Weightlifting comes to mind. But can a strong weightlifter who can squat 800lbs sprint on the track or a bike? Probably not. Why not?

MvdP is a very strong sprinter. Is he muscular? Froome is a world class climber. Is he muscular? Kipchoge ran a 2:00 marathon. His legs are skinnier than everyone here. What's going on? Do we really understand what we are talking about when we are talking about strength? Muscle fibers, density, endurance of those fibers?

Does Usain Bolt have more muscle fibers in his legs than a bulky weightlifter, or less? His legs are certainly smaller...so are his legs less strong than a weightlifter? Then why can he go faster? Why don't 100m sprinters have massive bulky legs? Why are they lean?

Could it be...they are intentionally avoiding adding unnecessary bulk to their legs that will slow them down? In other words, they are intentionally avoiding getting "stronger" (in the colloquial sense)?
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Cat6Barrister
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by Cat6Barrister

iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:40 am
Hexsense wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:16 pm
JMeinholdt wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:03 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:41 pm
There is one thing that is not in conflict in anyone's post:
You need more long hours of easy ride.
Actually, iheartbianchi said the last thing I need is vo2 workouts and 2+ hour rides.
Well, he even conflict himself in the same post if you read it that way.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:30 am
I would say intervals and 2+ hour rides are the last thing you need.
...
but you need(ed) to go slow and easy for a long time to get your body to eliminate your fast-twitch fibers and build more slow-twitch (and strenghten them too), and to retrain your body to rely less on muscle glycogen for fuel.
No 2 hours+ ride. But you need to go slow and easy for a long time.
I think he mean, no vo2 workouts and then 2 hours+ ride together but long easy ride is fine, I guess.
Sorry I may have confused you with my terminology.

Vo2max "workouts" - by workouts, I refer to structured training sessions like intervals, sprints or threshold rides. For the avoidance of doubt, all aerobic exercise improves your Vo2Max, so I wasn't referring to Vo2Max exercise/training (which applies to all training).

I also meant, train more by going slow and easy for a "over a longer time period", not "go on longer rides." This means, do a higher frequency of slow and easy rides, ideally in blocks of roughly 45-60 minutes and 60-90 minutes (45 minute and 90 minutes are the "sweet spots" in terms of muscular growth, mitochondria function and capillarization). It's like the 45 second rule for weight lifting - 45 seconds of continuous work is where you get the most cost-efficient muscular adaptations.

I would caution against going on greater than 2 hour rides unless you are highly fit aerobically. The muscle tears, stress on your connective tissue, energy depletion, hormonal changes, etc., of long rides (over 2 hours) cause high degrees of stress and fatigue to the point that it can jeopardize your recovery and training the next day (this all assumes you are adopting a high frequency training model where you try to train everyday). In other words, for many amateur cyclists, 2+ hour rides in fact become "hard" rides that are costly in terms of your ability to repeat training the next day.
Let me just start off by saying I'm a big fan of yours, after having read all your posts on an older thread (z3 workout something was the title). I also love bianchi (Oltre xr4 disc and a neo-retro 1991 bianchi w/ columbus el tubling) But fanboy'ing aside, could you speak more to the frequency of 2+hr z2 rides?

I'm a medical student who picked up cycling after gyms closed during the pandemic to keep sane and like OP probably genetically adapted towards anerobic fibers; I've always had a scrawnyish upper body relative to my legs, can't run a mile to safe my life but I could probably outsprint most non-pros, lifted sporadically without structure and at 72kgs I could squat 165kg and deadlift 190kg for reps. After ending my friendship with weights and becoming a Fred I basically hammerfested every outdoor ride (as is tradition for most new cyclists?) + trainerroad sweetspot training till I crashed and burned.

I've since switched to basically z2 rides on my smart trainer (hr kept between 120-130), since it allows me to exercise and study at the same time. I was under the impression that when building an aerobic base there should be progressive overload through volume, a-la increase hours.

At the moment I do 1.5 - 3hrs/day on the trainer during weekdays. The first two weeks I tried it, I basically felt fatigued all day but now--3.5 months later)--I can basically go about my day afterwards. However, the only people who would consider me aerobically fit are non-cyclists so...Should I not be doing this?

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