Aerobic endurance outpacing muscle endurance?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Hexsense
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by Hexsense

JMeinholdt wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:03 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:41 pm
There is one thing that is not in conflict in anyone's post:
You need more long hours of easy ride.
Actually, iheartbianchi said the last thing I need is vo2 workouts and 2+ hour rides.
Well, he even conflict himself in the same post if you read it that way.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:30 am
I would say intervals and 2+ hour rides are the last thing you need.
...
but you need(ed) to go slow and easy for a long time to get your body to eliminate your fast-twitch fibers and build more slow-twitch (and strenghten them too), and to retrain your body to rely less on muscle glycogen for fuel.
No 2 hours+ ride. But you need to go slow and easy for a long time.
I think he mean, no vo2 workouts and then 2 hours+ ride together but long easy ride is fine, I guess.

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fiber
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by fiber

scapie wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:48 am
When it comes to training a lot of talk is far too complicated, I’ve mentioned it before, but I think that people who are still in the honeymoon phase (just generalising) of cycling are searching for an easier or faster way to get fitter. That’s just not how it works. To get good at cycling you need to have a good aerobic engine and to build that it takes time. There’s no secrets or shortcuts to it unfortunately.
It doesn't happen often to read such sane and "old-fashioned" text. I found this post refreshing and no-nonsense.

And no, I still don't do it right after 15+ years of riding... I still get carried away with too much "quite fast" riding. It's one thing to learn what is the best way to train, and it's another to have the self-discipline.

JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

fiber wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:39 pm
And no, I still don't do it right after 15+ years of riding... I still get carried away with too much "quite fast" riding. It's one thing to learn what is the best way to train, and it's another to have the self-discipline.
The bolded part is especially true. I have the best intentions of following prescribed training plans, but at the end of the day, what it comes down to is that I just like riding my bike. I like going hard up a random climb, I like cruising slow with my kids, I like carving corners on the descents, etc.

I want to be strong. I want to get stronger. I want to be my best. But structuring everything to a T makes me miss out on what I enjoy most about riding my bike. It's a real dilemma.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Hexsense wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:16 pm
JMeinholdt wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:03 pm
Hexsense wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 7:41 pm
There is one thing that is not in conflict in anyone's post:
You need more long hours of easy ride.
Actually, iheartbianchi said the last thing I need is vo2 workouts and 2+ hour rides.
Well, he even conflict himself in the same post if you read it that way.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:30 am
I would say intervals and 2+ hour rides are the last thing you need.
...
but you need(ed) to go slow and easy for a long time to get your body to eliminate your fast-twitch fibers and build more slow-twitch (and strenghten them too), and to retrain your body to rely less on muscle glycogen for fuel.
No 2 hours+ ride. But you need to go slow and easy for a long time.
I think he mean, no vo2 workouts and then 2 hours+ ride together but long easy ride is fine, I guess.
Sorry I may have confused you with my terminology.

Vo2max "workouts" - by workouts, I refer to structured training sessions like intervals, sprints or threshold rides. For the avoidance of doubt, all aerobic exercise improves your Vo2Max, so I wasn't referring to Vo2Max exercise/training (which applies to all training).

I also meant, train more by going slow and easy for a "over a longer time period", not "go on longer rides." This means, do a higher frequency of slow and easy rides, ideally in blocks of roughly 45-60 minutes and 60-90 minutes (45 minute and 90 minutes are the "sweet spots" in terms of muscular growth, mitochondria function and capillarization). It's like the 45 second rule for weight lifting - 45 seconds of continuous work is where you get the most cost-efficient muscular adaptations.

I would caution against going on greater than 2 hour rides unless you are highly fit aerobically. The muscle tears, stress on your connective tissue, energy depletion, hormonal changes, etc., of long rides (over 2 hours) cause high degrees of stress and fatigue to the point that it can jeopardize your recovery and training the next day (this all assumes you are adopting a high frequency training model where you try to train everyday). In other words, for many amateur cyclists, 2+ hour rides in fact become "hard" rides that are costly in terms of your ability to repeat training the next day.
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maxim809
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by maxim809

I am really curious how CTL maps to endurance? Specifically, J's situation here?

My CTL/ATL is 116/144, but not sure what to make of that. I'm feeling "sharp" on the bike, mildly tired when not, and have a rest week coming up.

...

Re: Conflicting info. Yeah, deeper I go into every rabbit hole the more conflicting info I find as well. I think this happens because every situation is different. Well, actually, the symptoms can all look the same on the surface, but the underlying root-cause can be totally different. And there is a different approach for each root-cause... but if you only see the options and the symptoms then all the viable paths look like one big contradictory mess.

Education can help titrate plausible root cause. Unfortunately this takes time, and sometimes we as humans just want the answer... Anyway, CTL, anyone? :D

scapie
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2018 5:19 am

by scapie

fiber wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 8:39 pm
scapie wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:48 am
When it comes to training a lot of talk is far too complicated, I’ve mentioned it before, but I think that people who are still in the honeymoon phase (just generalising) of cycling are searching for an easier or faster way to get fitter. That’s just not how it works. To get good at cycling you need to have a good aerobic engine and to build that it takes time. There’s no secrets or shortcuts to it unfortunately.
It doesn't happen often to read such sane and "old-fashioned" text. I found this post refreshing and no-nonsense.
thanks

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

maxim809 wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:20 am
I am really curious how CTL maps to endurance? Specifically, J's situation here?

My CTL/ATL is 116/144, but not sure what to make of that. I'm feeling "sharp" on the bike, mildly tired when not, and have a rest week coming up.

By itself CTL doesn’t indicate too much unless the number is low. I mostly just wanted to see a number, just to have more data.

116ctl is pretty high, 144atl is very high. However I have no idea of the specifics of your training. For example, ONE 30-second max sprint is >20tss alone in my case. Riding at a steady 140W for an hour is also barely >20tss. Presumably you are mixing things up, in which case I would bet your endurance is pretty good. Certainly good enough to do 3-hour Z2 rides on a daily basis without consequence.

Hexsense
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by Hexsense

iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:40 am
Sorry I may have confused you with my terminology.
Thank you so much.
Your re-explanation totally make sense now. :beerchug:

So, to OP:
We all agree that you just need more ride.
Whether it's a few long one or multiple short rides almost everyday of the week is up to you to decide (here there are conflict advices). Each approach have plus and minus.

JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Hexsense wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:54 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:40 am
Sorry I may have confused you with my terminology.
Thank you so much.
Your re-explanation totally make sense now. :beerchug:

So, to OP:
We all agree that you just need more ride.
Whether it's a few long one or multiple short rides almost everyday of the week is up to you to decide (here there are conflict advices). Each approach have plus and minus.
:thumbup: I'm thinking I'll try two a days to get a solid training plan in, while getting easy outdoors rides in. The additional easy mileage on the second rides should tip the balance towards a more polarized approach.
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Cycomanic
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by Cycomanic

I think @iheartbianchi nailed it, you were riding 80-85% FTP for 2.5h that's lower sweetspot range for 2.5h and then you had some bits with 150% FTP in there. That is a very taxing endurance ride, and in fact generally not really considered terribly productive.

Everyone has been given you advice, but I think the big question is what are you actually training for? You say you want to get stronger, but what type of stronger, do you just want to kill it on your bunch rides? Do you want to race? Endurance events? I think a lot of what you should be doing depends on those goals.

Regarding your comment on sticking to a plan, I'm in the same boat. Back in the days when I was racing, I was always someone who got fit quite fast, but I struggled keeping my training structured. So often when I was getting better initially I upped my training load too much and then ended up burning out, because I increased intensity/duration too much and started to stagnate at the same time. Recently I've been getting back after a long time off, and I'm now using xertonline (I'm not associated just using it) and I've found that after reading there material I find myself better at sticking to things without having a rigit plan. The interface is definitely not as slick as some of the others and it does require quite a bit of reading (listening to podcasts) to understand the concept behind them. So it's more a way to teach yourself how to self-train, but you must be willing to make some time investment yourself.

Another alternative is to get a coach at least for half a year, he/she would be able to give you much better advice on the dos and don'ts than any one of us on the forum here, because they will actually see a lot of your power data and here how you feel after certain rides.

BTW regarding your numbers, I think that's quite good numbers for someone who started riding 3 years ago and didn't do any endurance sport before. Especially because considering your background you likely carry quite a bit of extra upper body muscle around with you compared to many others.

JMeinholdt
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by JMeinholdt

Cycomanic wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:02 pm
I think @iheartbianchi nailed it, you were riding 80-85% FTP for 2.5h that's lower sweetspot range for 2.5h and then you had some bits with 150% FTP in there. That is a very taxing endurance ride, and in fact generally not really considered terribly productive.

Everyone has been given you advice, but I think the big question is what are you actually training for? You say you want to get stronger, but what type of stronger, do you just want to kill it on your bunch rides? Do you want to race? Endurance events? I think a lot of what you should be doing depends on those goals.

Regarding your comment on sticking to a plan, I'm in the same boat. Back in the days when I was racing, I was always someone who got fit quite fast, but I struggled keeping my training structured. So often when I was getting better initially I upped my training load too much and then ended up burning out, because I increased intensity/duration too much and started to stagnate at the same time. Recently I've been getting back after a long time off, and I'm now using xertonline (I'm not associated just using it) and I've found that after reading there material I find myself better at sticking to things without having a rigit plan. The interface is definitely not as slick as some of the others and it does require quite a bit of reading (listening to podcasts) to understand the concept behind them. So it's more a way to teach yourself how to self-train, but you must be willing to make some time investment yourself.

Another alternative is to get a coach at least for half a year, he/she would be able to give you much better advice on the dos and don'ts than any one of us on the forum here, because they will actually see a lot of your power data and here how you feel after certain rides.

BTW regarding your numbers, I think that's quite good numbers for someone who started riding 3 years ago and didn't do any endurance sport before. Especially because considering your background you likely carry quite a bit of extra upper body muscle around with you compared to many others.
This is all great info. And yes, I do carry quite a bit of upper body mass, but over the years it has reduced, much to my wife's disappointment.

I listen quite often to TrainerRoad's podcasts, but I've never used their program. I recall listening recently about their adaptive training that incorporates your "off-plan" rides and adapts the plan accordingly. I'm really looking forward to when that is rolled out.

Right now, my goals are, unfortunately, quite varied. Short term, I've got a 40 minute crit tomorrow. Intermediate term, I have a couple road races in May that end on a half mile 7% hill (~2min power is ideal for the final). Total duration of the road races will likely be 1.5-2 hours. There's a 10k TT, but I've never done a TT and I'm not buying a TT bike, so I may pass on that one. Long term would be fall gravel races. That's where longer duration will be important. I'll be doing BWR Kansas at the end of October and that's 111 miles (178km). There are several others in the fall of various duration, but I've yet to pick and choose which I want to do.

Edit: To clarify, I really just started competing this year (I planned to last year, but that didn't work out). I'm still trying to find what suits my capabilities best. The crit's I've done so far, while I'm not terrible at them, I think they're suited to riders with higher absolute power. I have a decent power to weight, but my absolute power is still lower than most people in the same cat. I'm hoping the road race with steady power in a bunch and finishing on a short steep climb will better suit my abilities.
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Cycomanic
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2020 11:10 pm

by Cycomanic

JMeinholdt wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:45 pm
Cycomanic wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:02 pm
I think @iheartbianchi nailed it, you were riding 80-85% FTP for 2.5h that's lower sweetspot range for 2.5h and then you had some bits with 150% FTP in there. That is a very taxing endurance ride, and in fact generally not really considered terribly productive.

Everyone has been given you advice, but I think the big question is what are you actually training for? You say you want to get stronger, but what type of stronger, do you just want to kill it on your bunch rides? Do you want to race? Endurance events? I think a lot of what you should be doing depends on those goals.

Regarding your comment on sticking to a plan, I'm in the same boat. Back in the days when I was racing, I was always someone who got fit quite fast, but I struggled keeping my training structured. So often when I was getting better initially I upped my training load too much and then ended up burning out, because I increased intensity/duration too much and started to stagnate at the same time. Recently I've been getting back after a long time off, and I'm now using xertonline (I'm not associated just using it) and I've found that after reading there material I find myself better at sticking to things without having a rigit plan. The interface is definitely not as slick as some of the others and it does require quite a bit of reading (listening to podcasts) to understand the concept behind them. So it's more a way to teach yourself how to self-train, but you must be willing to make some time investment yourself.

Another alternative is to get a coach at least for half a year, he/she would be able to give you much better advice on the dos and don'ts than any one of us on the forum here, because they will actually see a lot of your power data and here how you feel after certain rides.

BTW regarding your numbers, I think that's quite good numbers for someone who started riding 3 years ago and didn't do any endurance sport before. Especially because considering your background you likely carry quite a bit of extra upper body muscle around with you compared to many others.
This is all great info. And yes, I do carry quite a bit of upper body mass, but over the years it has reduced, much to my wife's disappointment.

I listen quite often to TrainerRoad's podcasts, but I've never used their program. I recall listening recently about their adaptive training that incorporates your "off-plan" rides and adapts the plan accordingly. I'm really looking forward to when that is rolled out.
If you are interested in learning things, I'd definitely try out xert then. Their trainer app is nowhere close to as good as trainerroad, but the training planning and fitness tracking is much better and you learn quite a lot about how to train, if you are willing to read up on some of their concepts. I used trainerroad as well, mainly for my indoor rides, but cancelled my subscription because I find they are really getting too expensive for what they offer.
Right now, my goals are, unfortunately, quite varied. Short term, I've got a 40 minute crit tomorrow. Intermediate term, I have a couple road races in May that end on a half mile 7% hill (~2min power is ideal for the final). Total duration of the road races will likely be 1.5-2 hours. There's a 10k TT, but I've never done a TT and I'm not buying a TT bike, so I may pass on that one. Long term would be fall gravel races. That's where longer duration will be important. I'll be doing BWR Kansas at the end of October and that's 111 miles (178km). There are several others in the fall of various duration, but I've yet to pick and choose which I want to do.
Sounds like you're still figuring out what you like. I think it's important to remember that in the end it's all about the fun on the bike. I often find discussions on forums like these is very heavily slanted toward the superfocused, superstructured riders who very stricktly follow their training program, have a nutrition plan etc.. I guess it's because people who hang out on cycling forums are very invested in their cycling. So keep in mind to mentally and physically rest, don't let getting on the bike feel like it is chore instead of fun.

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by fruitfly

To the OP, there is a guy I ride with once a week or so, 50 something, who started cycling last March. He is a former national powerlifting champ, now body builds, is about 220 lbs (100kg), and to the untrained eye has zero body fat. He commutes to work most days a week (~80km/50miles round trip), so that gives him long slow rides. He also comes on a group ride that gives him about 120km. He is in a profession that gets lots of days off, and on those days he combines rides of 80-100km/50-60 miles with Strava KoM hunting (he did a ride recently where he picked off 11 Strava KOM). So the good news is you can be very aerobically fit even as you maintain muscle mass and strength, without an obvious training plan beyond "ride lots" and go hard on Strava segments.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Power to weight doesn’t matter in most crits...it starts to matter if the crit has a short/sharp hill or is extremely technical with lots of accelerations, but even then I’d say bigger guys generally have an advantage. For 40min crits, you don’t need much volume at all. Even in a 2-hour road race, you can get by with pretty low volume, but of course it will be better if you have more stamina/resilience. You need to be able to do a quality max aerobic or even a aerobic effort after expending 1500kJ. This comes from those long Z1/Z2 rides.

Use a donationware app like Intervals.icu if you don’t want to pay for WKO5.

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Cord1138
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by Cord1138

scapie wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:48 am

So if you wanted my suggestion firstly I would look to increase your ride volume. And secondly I’d take a step back from complicated training theories and focus on really hitting the basics. Those being volume at low intensity, consistency and rest. I would develop a routine which fits around your life commitments, something that is achievable to maintain over a long period of time, say 3-6 months, and then I would rinse and repeat that week in week out. Its not glamourous, but its how you get the job done.

Happy to discuss more here or if you want to pm me I can go into it in more detail

I'd like to hear more as I hope others would as well. Being a relative newcomer, I am happy(as anyone can be :) ) to build my fitness in an unglamorous way.

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