Breathing!

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

Moderator: Moderator Team

cheapvega
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I feel stupid for asking about something so basic. But I have been breathing deeper on rides and finding my HR going down as a result. I have read that it's supposedly good to take deeper breaths when just relaxing too. Does anyone have any breathing exercises/strategies that will help with performance?

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Hexsense
Posts: 3269
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2015 12:41 am
Location: USA

by Hexsense

Not sure if it's a bad advice but my breathing improve a ton after Covid hit the world and it is mandated to wear mask for a long time.
Two years ago, my breating muscles were relatively weak. I'd feel sore upper abs and shortness of breath after holding 180 BPM for a while.
Then, Covid hit us and we have to wear mask day in day out. At first, it feel super uncomfortable to just breath through mask while doing nothing.
Then I am able to keep mask on for the whole commuting ride that takes 15 minutes at or below threshold.
When I'm back in hard group ride again, I noticed that the shortness of breath and breathing muscle soreness is now gone. I no longer have a moment that I just have to drop off the group because I can't breath normally anymore. So, just wear mask more?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

cheapvega wrote:
Thu Mar 04, 2021 4:27 pm
I feel stupid for asking about something so basic. But I have been breathing deeper on rides and finding my HR going down as a result. I have read that it's supposedly good to take deeper breaths when just relaxing too. Does anyone have any breathing exercises/strategies that will help with performance?

The secret to breathing is to exhale sharply to expel CO2...it's heavier than O2. Then relax your diaphragm and you will passively inhale plenty of air (and corresponding O2.) You don't need to take conscious deep breaths, but it may be slightly beneficial to pause briefly in between inhale and exhale.

If you want see how breathing, HR and aerobic/anaerobic metabolism work, try this:
Ride at Z1 pace, take a deep breath and then hold it. Keep riding at Z1 pace until you feel like you need to exhale, and then keep riding until you are blue in the face, starting to hiccup, etc. Observe what happens to you HR during this time and also what your legs feel like.

motorthings
Posts: 344
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:56 pm

by motorthings

i've heard that breathing out is more important thatn breathing in deeply, or more forcefully, or with bigger muscles. focus on geting rid of the CO2.
my experience running tells me nose breathing (in) is far superior to mouth breathing, but my septum and turbinates want to argue about it.

garbageman
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:08 am

by garbageman

Offloading too much CO2 is detrimental to performance. There is a phenomenon called the Bohr effect: put simply, the higher CO2 levels in your blood, the more oxygen can be released to your muscles. Shortness of breath or "air hunger" - the feeling that you need to open your mouth and breathe in deeply - usually comes not from a lack of oxygen in the blood, but from poor CO2 tolerance (often associated with habitual mouth-breathing).
Hexsense, in your case, I'd guess that your CO2 tolerance increased from regular mask wearing. Perhaps your breathing muscles have increased in strength or endurance as well, or maybe they are just not working as hard; since you can now tolerate higher CO2 levels, you dont feel the need to breathe forcefully until higher levels of exertion.

Cheapvega, you absolutely should not feel stupid for asking such a question. Though breathing may seem like the simplest, most basic function you can perform, most of us are not breathing "properly" or optimally for our health and athletic performance. I will warn you, though, that your question may lead you down a bit of a rabbit hole. If you aren't averse to Joe Rogan, I'd recommend listening to his podcast #1506 with James Nestor as a first step down that rabbit hole.

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

The Bohr effect only applies when you are already oxygen starved in specific muscle groups. It is a passive/background process when you desperately need it, not something you should intentionally try to do when you are riding hard.

If you want to do hypoventilated training, you can do that in zone 1. That will increase your lactate buffering ability as well. However if you are riding at higher intensities, it makes no sense to “hold more CO2.” It’s like heat training where the adaptations are made independently of the workload.

TL;DR, When you need to go fast in the moment, you need to expel CO2.

garbageman
Posts: 216
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2020 6:08 am

by garbageman

I'm not a physiologist but this is my understanding: I don't think it's correct to say the Bohr effect "only applies when...". The Bohr effect "applies" all the time. I agree that it is a "passive/background process" and not really something you could "intentionally try to do" - the Bohr effect occurs whenever there is increased skeletal muscle activity leading to an increase in the partial pressure of CO2/decrease in local blood pH (not just "when you desperately need it").

I wrote "offloading too much CO2 is detrimental to performance" not to suggest you should try to " 'hold more CO2' " (not sure who/what you were quoting as that's not something I wrote) but to suggest you should not try to forcefully offload as much CO2 as possible as often as possible. Doing so leads to overbreathing/hyperventilation and reduced oxygenation of muscle tissue (Bohr effect).
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:57 pm
TL;DR, When you need to go fast in the moment, you need to expel CO2.
I'm not sure what to take away from this. It's obviously true, but you could replace "need to go fast in the moment" with any action requiring respiration and it would still be true. Is the implication that our performance is limited by the volume of air (or CO2 - perhaps an important distinction?) we can exhale?

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

It's something you train via hypoventilation on a Z1/Z2 ride if you want to. On the trainer is even better because it honestly feels terrible if you push it to extremes. But yes, the adaptation here is the ability to buffer that carbonic acid faster so you don't have to rely on the Bohr effect until you're working even harder.

Again, you're not reducing oxygenation of the muscle tissue by expelling CO2, you're literally doing a better job at it so the Bohr effect doesn’t have to.

Gwcman
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:15 pm

by Gwcman

Breathing is super important and I think we take it for granted as we don't fully understand it and the effects it has on us. If you want to learn a good deal about breathing there was a great Joe Rogan Podcast recently with a fellow by the name of James Nestor who wrote a book called "Breath - The Science of a lost art", very interesting and well worth the listen to with regards to the podcast and I still need to order the book!

I also do breath work daily, first thing when I get up on an empty stomach - it's kind of like meditation. I use the Wim Hof method, (Google him or search him on YouTube) I essentially do several rounds of deep nose breathing excercising my diaphram along with periods of retention up to almost 4mins now then exhale, been doing this for about 1 year now and notice a difference in how I react to certain cicumstances. Additionally, when I do my Z2 endurance rides or go for walks I try and focus on breathing through my nose excercising my diaphram.

Breath work is all very interesting and there's much more to it than just in/out through the mouth & lungs.

Cheers,

Cord1138
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:26 pm

by Cord1138

I've seen a few videos on stomach breathing, and it's benefit for cycling, how do folks practice that? I tried it on my turbo trainer but found it hard as the effort increased and couldn't really feel any benefits, so figured I must be doing something wrong.

Gwcman
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:15 pm

by Gwcman

Cord1138 wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:18 pm
I've seen a few videos on stomach breathing, and it's benefit for cycling, how do folks practice that? I tried it on my turbo trainer but found it hard as the effort increased and couldn't really feel any benefits, so figured I must be doing something wrong.
I practice when walking and in particular riding in Z2. I also practice my nose & diaphram breathing when doing my Wim Hof breathing excercises daily and it eventually becomes 2nd nature you won't have to think about. Try to focus on nose breathing even when relaxing watching tv, every little bit helps.

Here's help vid I found on YouTube a while back that explains breathing pretty well -
https://youtu.be/zsy4xmkVmow

Cheers,

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12455
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Cord1138 wrote:
Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:18 pm
I've seen a few videos on stomach breathing, and it's benefit for cycling, how do folks practice that? I tried it on my turbo trainer but found it hard as the effort increased and couldn't really feel any benefits, so figured I must be doing something wrong.

I don’t...lung capacity isn’t the limiting factor for most people. Tummy breathing is easily accomplished by just relaxing diaphragm after a forceful exhale. Just passively inhale and let the air fill the vacuum.

bikeboy1tr
Posts: 1395
Joined: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 am
Location: Southern Ontario Canada

by bikeboy1tr

Everything I have read always says focus on exhale and inhale naturally. I did at one time do breathing exercises that Greg Lemond had used in the past. Long slow inhale and hold then long slow exhale and hold until you could no longer.
Now that I have more cycling to watch on TV I have noticed many of the pros who belly breathe which looks kind of strange when you get a side view of their tummy but I see it more and more now. I googled belly breathing and got this one article that I thought was pretty good.
https://www.welovecycling.com/wide/2018 ... n-cycling/
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=154188
2018 Colnago V2R Rim Brake
2019 Colnago V2R Disc Brake
2014 Norco Threshold Disc Brake
2006 Ridley Crosswind Rim Brake

Cord1138
Posts: 35
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2020 8:26 pm

by Cord1138

Thanks for the tips and articles, will try and practice some techniques

backdoor
Posts: 129
Joined: Tue May 21, 2019 9:54 pm
Location: Cascade Mountains WA

by backdoor

One technique which I learned running cross country years ago but never left me is the "double breath"

In the case of running you inhale twice and exhale twice. Once with each step. So the breathing would match your pace. Inhale, Inhale, exhale, exhale. It allows you to focus on a larger intake of O2 and a larger exhale of CO2.

When I ride I try to keep my cadence steady and use this same double breath pattern and try to match my breathing with my cadence.

It's harder to control with strenuous output as in sprints or a quick jump on the pedals when powering to the top of a climb but if you learn to breath that way itll help you control your heartrate and recover quicker.
Through the Valleys and over the Mountains...
2013 Ridley Helium - 6.9Kg
2017 Blue ProSecco - 9.0Kg
2018 Ridley Noah SL - 7.85Kg

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



Post Reply