A few questions about HEART RATE interval training...

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Catagory6
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by Catagory6

... that i can't seem to find answers to

when i see graphs for interval training, they're always square-wave graphs.
warmup is a straight horizontal line, then BAM... vertical line straight to target HR. then another straight vertical line back down to warmup HR.

it takes me a good 50 minutes to warm up to zone 4/5, and the graph looks like a sloping sawtooth.
then i start doing my intervals. there is no way i could go from warmup, zone 2, to VO2max zone 5/6 intervals.
but is that the point? to go from warm-up/recovery HR to interval HR as quickly as possible?
also, when does the timing for the interval start? when you start exerting effort to get to target HR? or when you hit target HR?
same with recovery? does recovery start as soon as you ease up from the interval? or when you hit the target recovery HR?
and what zone is target recovery HR?

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petromyzon
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by petromyzon

Ride longer efforts targetting a heart rate band, but do short intervals on perceived exertion. Interval starts when your effort starts and finishes when it stops, irrespective of what your HR is at the time.

Obviously you've hit on a lot of the key issues with HR based interval training - power probably better for intense intervals and tracking progress.

Singular
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by Singular

Catagory6 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:24 am
... that i can't seem to find answers to

when i see graphs for interval training, they're always square-wave graphs.
warmup is a straight horizontal line, then BAM... vertical line straight to target HR. then another straight vertical line back down to warmup HR.

it takes me a good 50 minutes to warm up to zone 4/5, and the graph looks like a sloping sawtooth.
then i start doing my intervals. there is no way i could go from warmup, zone 2, to VO2max zone 5/6 intervals.
but is that the point? to go from warm-up/recovery HR to interval HR as quickly as possible?
also, when does the timing for the interval start? when you start exerting effort to get to target HR? or when you hit target HR?
same with recovery? does recovery start as soon as you ease up from the interval? or when you hit the target recovery HR?
and what zone is target recovery HR?
HR is a really clunky measurement for interval training - it's slow-changing, not very consistent and depending on a wide range of factors that are really hard to control. On the road, my HR is signficantly lower than on a stationary/trainer at the same power (most likely due to the heat). I'd rather do interval work to perceived effort if power measurement is not an option.

I have a mate who's an old-school veteran (with quite an impressive palmares in the national masters ranks), who runs also his shorter intervals to HR. He is very clear about his view (which differs from many others); interval starts when HR is at the prescribed value (which means a fairly long ramp-up to the effort). For me, HR is really only applicable to things like long threshold intervals, LSD and long climbs.

And worth to remember; there are no "rules" for how to do interval training (or any training). You choose for yourself. But if you have a program that stipulates (short) time in different zones, those are target values and pretty hard to follow strictly with HR. For example; in a four-min effort, you'll likely have a HR that is below target (and too high power, but that's another story...) for the first minute until HR catches up.

Djakninn
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by Djakninn

petromyzon wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:41 am
Ride longer efforts targetting a heart rate band, but do short intervals on perceived exertion. Interval starts when your effort starts and finishes when it stops, irrespective of what your HR is at the time.

Obviously you've hit on a lot of the key issues with HR based interval training - power probably better for intense intervals and tracking progress.
^This. Only thing to add is the warm up (an example could be for VO2 max intervals of 30s on/30s off), ramp up from say Z1 to Z4 over 10-12 mins, a couple of mins at Z2, then 30s on/30s off of increasing intensity activation intervals x 3, a couple of more mins back down at Z1/2 then start the VO2 max intervals. Looking at TP, my HR doesn't peak til about the 30s mark of the effort, so you could only really do these as stated in a timed manner taking RPE into consideration

AJS914
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by AJS914

Catagory6 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:24 am
when i see graphs for interval training, they're always square-wave graphs.
warmup is a straight horizontal line, then BAM... vertical line straight to target HR. then another straight vertical line back down to warmup HR.

Aren't these usually power based graphs?

Assuming that you don't have power, I would do intervals based on RPE and HR. Say you are doing a 10 minute threshold inteval. Start off at the RPE that you think is theshold. As you get into the interval and your HR stabilizes then you can go a little harder or back off a little based on the HR target you have for threshold.

Spurdo
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by Spurdo

I cant quite think any other intervals that would result in a HR graph that looks even remotely like a square wave other than hard start VO2 where you go real hard until you hit the target and then ease off and HR stays around the target.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

I'm not intending to open the can of worms again, but many many elite World Tour cyclists and endurance athletes across discplines (running, biathlon) etc., successfully do interval training based on heart rates and blood lactate levels.

The general principle is your body is physiologically ready for the next interval when your heart rate as "recovered" to roughly 50-60% of max, as opposed to a set "30-90 second" recovery period.

Also, for a trained athlete, your heart rate should react within 2-5 seconds of the effort. So the "heart rate lag" people often refer to is de minimis.

For example, do a 5-10 minute jog to warmup and go to the base of some stairs. Go from a standing start and start a full sprint up some stairs while wearing a heart rate monitor. You will see you will be at your max heart rate before you get to the second floor.
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Lozaen
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by Lozaen

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:10 am


For example, do a 5-10 minute jog to warmup and go to the base of some stairs. Go from a standing start and start a full sprint up some stairs while wearing a heart rate monitor. You will see you will be at your max heart rate before you get to the second floor.
Have you tried this yourself?
Doesn't work for me.
No way of reaching my HRmax in less than five to 10 minutes. If I do full out sprints, muscles will be sore in not time, after the actual intervall HR will still climb and reach it's max-value about 30-60 seconds later, which is definitely not my HR-max, after the intervall.
For a real HR-max effort, i need to push several minutes at VO2max.
Yes, HR reacts fast, it increases fast from the original state quickly, but it doesn't reach max oder steady state within the first couple of minutes

HR based training works well for endurance training, but I don't know a single professional athlete, who uses HR for intense stuff.
Wondering whom you are reffering to :noidea:
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Lozaen
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by Lozaen

AJS914 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:11 pm
Catagory6 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:24 am
when i see graphs for interval training, they're always square-wave graphs.
warmup is a straight horizontal line, then BAM... vertical line straight to target HR. then another straight vertical line back down to warmup HR.

Aren't these usually power based graphs?

Those graphs that I have seen where definitely Power-based
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Lozaen wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:01 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:10 am


For example, do a 5-10 minute jog to warmup and go to the base of some stairs. Go from a standing start and start a full sprint up some stairs while wearing a heart rate monitor. You will see you will be at your max heart rate before you get to the second floor.
Have you tried this yourself?
Doesn't work for me.
No way of reaching my HRmax in less than five to 10 minutes. If I do full out sprints, muscles will be sore in not time, after the actual intervall HR will still climb and reach it's max-value about 30-60 seconds later, which is definitely not my HR-max, after the intervall.
For a real HR-max effort, i need to push several minutes at VO2max.
Yes, HR reacts fast, it increases fast from the original state quickly, but it doesn't reach max oder steady state within the first couple of minutes

HR based training works well for endurance training, but I don't know a single professional athlete, who uses HR for intense stuff.
Wondering whom you are reffering to :noidea:
Then you must not have warmed up properly? Or there is something biomechanically keeping you from exerting maximum effort? Or perhaps your stairs are very short? For example, 100m sprinters achieve their maximum heart rates before the end of their sprint (which lasts 10 seconds). It shouldn't be much of a surprise, but maximum heart rate achieved by athletes in 100m, 200m, 400m, 1500m and 5000m events are almost exactly the same despite the vast time range of 10 seconds to 13-14 minutes, the difference between the significantly lower anaerobic (lactate) thresholds for the sprinters given their lack of lactate threshold.

I spent years training with elite/Olympic athletes (USA and now in Asia), and continue to train juniors on an on/off basis although I am mostly retired now. Every single one of them uses a heart rate monitor for their hard workouts. Even Usain Bolt uses a heart rate monitor for parts of his training. It goes without saying track cyclists use heart rate monitors. The only time heart rate monitors don't make sense is in short sprint workouts (since you're going at max effort regardless of HR or power), but in those cases they're not even looking at their power outputs until after the fact. Have you seen track sprint workouts? Also, elite athletes are so well in-tuned with their bodies that even though they have heart rate monitors, they know very accurately where their heart rate is without even looking at the screen, as they have an "elite" level of internal pacing. So the entire function of the HR monitor in "workouts" (differentiated from easy rides) is to make sure they slow down and don't push too hard and learning to pace at a hard effort (just below lactate threshold, or how hard they can afford to push above lactate threshold).
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Lozaen wrote:
Wed Mar 24, 2021 9:03 am
AJS914 wrote:
Tue Dec 08, 2020 4:11 pm
Catagory6 wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:24 am
when i see graphs for interval training, they're always square-wave graphs.
warmup is a straight horizontal line, then BAM... vertical line straight to target HR. then another straight vertical line back down to warmup HR.

Aren't these usually power based graphs?

Those graphs that I have seen where definitely Power-based
And there are thousands of such graphs across many languages produced by many national training centers which are based on HR, which were in existence long before power meters were in common use.
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Lozaen
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by Lozaen

iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:32 am
. It shouldn't be much of a surprise, but maximum heart rate achieved by athletes in 100m, 200m, 400m, 1500m and 5000m events are almost exactly the same despite the vast time range of 10 seconds to 13-14 minutes, the difference between the significantly lower anaerobic (lactate) thresholds for the sprinters given their lack of lactate threshold.
Inrteresting...and do 5000 m runners hit their maximum heartrate also after 10 seconds?
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Lozaen wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 10:02 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Thu Mar 25, 2021 3:32 am
. It shouldn't be much of a surprise, but maximum heart rate achieved by athletes in 100m, 200m, 400m, 1500m and 5000m events are almost exactly the same despite the vast time range of 10 seconds to 13-14 minutes, the difference between the significantly lower anaerobic (lactate) thresholds for the sprinters given their lack of lactate threshold.
Inrteresting...and do 5000 m runners hit their maximum heartrate also after 10 seconds?
Believe it or not it's close. In a 5,000m race elites will average 90-95% of max heart rate for the duration. 100% max means you are recruiting all available muscles for the effort, which in a lonnger distance you save for the finish.
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