Heart Rate Zones

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Sammutd88
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:14 am

by Sammutd88

Hi Guys,

Quick overview and question. I'm a recreational cyclist, ride 2-3 times per week and slightly overweight but not obese. I ride with a heart rate monitor and single sided power meter, and have noticed that whilst my power is generally spread across the power zones during a ride, my heart rate is more than 70% in the "Hard" zone, or about 152-173bpm. At 32, I assume my max HR is about 188-190bpm. Ride have to be short and sharp these days with the restricitions here in Victoria during this pandemic, but have noticed this for a while. My question is basically, is this just a product of being unfit? I wouldn't say I'm uncomfortable in that zone, but I'd prefer to do some rides in the Fat burning zone which is about a max of 140bpm. I'm just a bit baffled by the data, I would've thought a good spread of power zones would translate to a spread of HR zones although I understand they are independant metrics to some extent. I guess my body just requires a specific heart rate to maintain a pace during the ride and doesn't really fluctuate that much......

IchDien
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by IchDien

There are people out there who definitely know more about this than I do but to me it sounds like you're taking it too hard (and not hard enough on times) to be honest...if you want to do a max of 140bpm then stick to it no matter how slow you're going or ridicululous you might feel at first. Mastering how to do a strict Z1 / Z2 ride took me perseverence, patience and (what felt like at the time) incredible mental concentration not to get carried away and slip into the classic Z3 / Z4 "sweet spot" ride where you're going fast enough to enjoy yourself and feel like you're testing your body but in reality not training hard enough to gain any notable long term physical improvement.

You might also find that you aren't doing enough very very easy or enough very very hard efforts (if you don't feel like dying at the end of a tough session of interval training then you're doing it wrong :lol: / if a child overtakes you on a Z1 ride you're doing it right :mrgreen: ) so your heart rate is basically staying in the zone you've trained (and spent a long time training) it to be comfortable in...152-173bpm..which depending on circumstances can cover a wide variety of cycling situations without skipping a beat.

Finally you might also want to try ascertain your max and resting HR rather than just guessing to better plot your HR zones too. e.g. my max is much higher than predicted for my age.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Are you using default Strava HR zones? If so, they are garbage and will inflate your sense of “hard efforts.” Google Joe Friel heart rate training zones and then go do an all out 30min effort. Take the the average HR from your last 20min and then set that as your LTHR. Set the rest of your HR zones as percentages prescribed by Joe Friel. Your HRmax actually doesn’t matter for the purposes of training and if you have to guess at it based on your age, it’s likely you haven’t hit it while riding.

Sammutd88
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:14 am

by Sammutd88

@IchDien -Thanks for that, yep down in Z1 and even 2, I feel like it's just too slow, like there was no point spending money on a nice carbon bike! I'll have to persevere and just see how I go with that.

@TobinHatesYou - Will definitely do that, that's the reason I reached out, had no idea on the Joe Friel zones, etc. Just using standard Wahoo app zones that it's created, probably very generalised.

fruitfly
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Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

To the OP. I mostly use HR (when I use anything), and returned to cycling after a 40 year period of not training. I found that my highest measured HR on a solo ride was 176, and LTHR as determined by Friel's method was 160. The reason I don't use a HR monitor most of the time is that the transition from breathing through my nose to breathing through my mouth accurately reflects the transition from training for endurance to the middle zone or zones, and the transition from mouth breathing to gasping marks the transition from aerobic to anaerobic (highest zone or zones).

Then I joined a performance oriented club and went on rides that were beyond my ability. I discovered that I was recording HR of 184 at maximal efforts. This is higher than predicted for my age, but then I have always had a higher HR than predicted for my age. Agreeing with Tobin, you need an actual HR value, not a predicted value, and point out that it is hard to really push yourself solo. The advantage of the Friel method is that it is empirical.

The other thing I noticed was that on the club rides I was spending most of my time just below or above my LTHR (160bpm) if I was keeping up. After about 20-30 min of this I would blow up and get dropped.

I do think that the HR you report reflects relative lack of fitness. Owing to a combination of design and COVID, I rode a lot by myself at low HR (long slow distance) this year. Once a week I did intervals at or just over LTHR (8x4min; or 4x8min). When club rides resumed about a month ago, I found I could now keep up easily with the group I was formerly getting dropped by, and moved up to a faster group. The main thing I noticed was that I was riding these faster speeds at 130bpm instead of 160bp. When the sprint up the hill or to a predetermined spot occurred, I still had something in the tank.

My assumption is that the slower speeds/lower HR rides increased my aerobic capacity (fitness), and allowed me to recover better than the rides I did in my first year back that were all near my LTHR. The latter point agrees with Ichdien's suggestion that it is better to ride easier or harder, and to avoid the middle. Slow rides need to be longer (45 min at least, and 90 min is better, with at least one long ride (>3h) a week.

There are lots of ways to train, and if you are time-limited, more efficient ways, but this is what worked for me.
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boots2000
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by boots2000

Some of what you say is true- You need to slow down and build aerobic fitness.
Also- What likely happens with some (or all of your rides)- Is that you start hard, use up a bunch of your power, blow through your glycogen, and then you HR stays high even though your power is not as high as the heartrate suggests.

Remember that heartrate is a measurement of effort- But an indirect measurement that can be affected by multiple factors.

So for some of your ride you absolutely should slow down to build your aerobic system and type I muscle fibers. When you do these also make sure to ease up your power so you are not seeing that spread of power and periods of time at higher power.

Sammutd88
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:14 am

by Sammutd88

Thanks for all the input. General takeaway is to get a proper max HR figure using above methods and to definiteyl slow down and do some long, slow rides. Currently where I live, we've only just been allowed to increase our exercise to 2 hours outside, but still have to stay within a 5km radius of our home so it's a bit difficult to go and do a long slow ride without getting bored of the same areas but I'll work on it. TBH, we were allowed only 1 hour of exercise outside so I was going out and just doing an hour fairly hard to get back pretty drained, and power figures showed my average was getting better over a few weeks, but I'll focus on long and slow and see what happens. Anyway, it was really just an observation, thanks for all the feedback.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

boots2000 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:56 pm
Some of what you say is true- You need to slow down and build aerobic fitness.

Honestly one doesn't *need* to slow down. 3-8min Z5/VO2max intervals are still primarily aerobic and quite efficient for building your "all day power." Of course, long slow rides help provide other neurological adaptations as well that will help prevent cramping, tightness, joint fatigue, etc.

Depends on what you like and how much time you have.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Sammutd88 wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:45 am
Thanks for all the input. General takeaway is to get a proper max HR figure using above methods and to definiteyl slow down and do some long, slow rides. Currently where I live, we've only just been allowed to increase our exercise to 2 hours outside, but still have to stay within a 5km radius of our home so it's a bit difficult to go and do a long slow ride without getting bored of the same areas but I'll work on it. TBH, we were allowed only 1 hour of exercise outside so I was going out and just doing an hour fairly hard to get back pretty drained, and power figures showed my average was getting better over a few weeks, but I'll focus on long and slow and see what happens. Anyway, it was really just an observation, thanks for all the feedback.

No, you don't need to find out what your HRmax is. HRmax is not a training zone, nor does it define training zones. That's what LTHR is for.

The only thing HRmax is good for is knowing decisively when you're cooked on very short intervals.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

boots2000 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 5:56 pm
Some of what you say is true- You need to slow down and build aerobic fitness.
Also- What likely happens with some (or all of your rides)- Is that you start hard, use up a bunch of your power, blow through your glycogen, and then you HR stays high even though your power is not as high as the heartrate suggests.

Remember that heartrate is a measurement of effort- But an indirect measurement that can be affected by multiple factors.

So for some of your ride you absolutely should slow down to build your aerobic system and type I muscle fibers. When you do these also make sure to ease up your power so you are not seeing that spread of power and periods of time at higher power.
If you blow through your glycogen (i.e., bonk) your muscles won't have the fuel to do work, and your cardiovascular system won't have to deliver as much oxygen to your muscles since they are doing less work, so your heart rate should actually decrease.

That's why it's impossible to get your heart rate up when you bonk, even though your perceived effort is through the roof.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Sammutd88 wrote:
Tue Sep 15, 2020 1:56 am
Hi Guys,

Quick overview and question. I'm a recreational cyclist, ride 2-3 times per week and slightly overweight but not obese. I ride with a heart rate monitor and single sided power meter, and have noticed that whilst my power is generally spread across the power zones during a ride, my heart rate is more than 70% in the "Hard" zone, or about 152-173bpm. At 32, I assume my max HR is about 188-190bpm. Ride have to be short and sharp these days with the restricitions here in Victoria during this pandemic, but have noticed this for a while. My question is basically, is this just a product of being unfit? I wouldn't say I'm uncomfortable in that zone, but I'd prefer to do some rides in the Fat burning zone which is about a max of 140bpm. I'm just a bit baffled by the data, I would've thought a good spread of power zones would translate to a spread of HR zones although I understand they are independant metrics to some extent. I guess my body just requires a specific heart rate to maintain a pace during the ride and doesn't really fluctuate that much......
You are just unfit and your body has not been trained to function efficiently aerobically. If you exercise at mostly 70% max HR, your body will adapt to functioning at 70% max HR, and won't learn to function at 65% max HR or 60% max HR.

A really interesting observation - elite marathoners struggle when playing sports that involve a lot of short sprints. Their HRs are all over the place. At the same time, highly fit boxers struggle to keep their HRs low on easy aerobic efforts - they are huffing and panting and sweating even on a slow jog.

Sounds like you are closer to the boxer spectrum. And this is bad for endurance sports. Chris Froome rode the Mt. Ventoux stage in the 2019? Tour De France with an average heart rate of 120bpm, not breaking 160bpm when he launched his stage winning attack. His body is conditioned to functioning at highly fuel and oxygen efficient, lower heart rates. You are conditioned to function by burning oxygen and glycogen quickly.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:19 am

Sounds like you are closer to the boxer spectrum. And this is bad for endurance sports. Chris Froome rode the Mt. Ventoux stage in the 2019? Tour De France with an average heart rate of 120bpm, not breaking 160bpm when he launched his stage winning attack. His body is conditioned to functioning at highly fuel and oxygen efficient, lower heart rates. You are conditioned to function by burning oxygen and glycogen quickly.

Froome is also at the fringe of the bell curve when it comes to working HR. His RHR isn't wickedly low compared to other cyclists, but his stroke volume is through the roof. His HRmax is rumored to be <170bpm and I can definitely see that being the case.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
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by iheartbianchi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:33 am

Froome is also at the fringe of the bell curve when it comes to working HR. His RHR isn't wickedly low compared to other cyclists, but his stroke volume is through the roof. His HRmax is rumored to be <170bpm and I can definitely see that being the case.
This is of course a critical point and one of the fundamental goals of aerobic training. A higher stroke volume means your heart needs to pump fewer times to deliver the same amount of oxygen to your muscles. That's why highly trained athletes have ridiculously low resting heart rates, and you see many riders with heart rates in the low 100s throughout a majority of a race.

Increasing your stroke volume at first glance seems fairly simple - high intensity exercise is a quick surefire way to improve stroke volume. Low/medium intensity exercise increases stroke volume, but not as much in the same time frame.

But here is where people get into trouble:

1) Heart stroke volume begins to rapidly decrease after only a few weeks of not training.
2) Further complicating matters is that studies indicate there is no "plateau" that is easily achievable in terms of stroke volume. Your heart can keep getting stronger and stronger, until you too reach the ridiculous resting heart rates in the 30s and struggle to go above 150bpm.

So, we want to keep increasing the strength of our hearts over as long of a time frame as possible. How do we achieve this? On the one hand, daily interval sessions will not be sustainable. But daily long slow sessions won't give you maximum benefit. And here is where we have one of the fundamental rationales for a periodized, polarized training regime. You want to throw in as much intensity as your body can handle without compromising recovery or your slow rides. If you go too hard on an interval session that you have to cut short and forgoe your easy ride the next day, this could land you in trouble.

Using simple hypothetical example: Assume that an easy ride increases your stroke volume by 5, and a hard interval increases your stroke volume by 7.

Day 1: Hard day (7)
Day 2: Regular (5)
Day 3: Hard day (7)
Day 4: Can't ride (0)
Day 5: Regular (5)

You have a total of 24 points. Compared to if you had done regular rides for 5 days, you'd be at 25 points. But then you'd be at 27 points if you had done just one hard day. The above will vary by rider and fitness, but the point is the balancing act that is required to manage your efforts.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

My point is that Froome is an outlier even among endurance athletes.

I recent browsed Warren Barguil's MSR Strava activity and his average power for the first 6 hours was 175W. His HRavg during this time was 122bpm. At 175W avg, my HR would be around 110bpm because that's just the way my heart works... I weigh roughly the same as him, but clearly don't have his 390W FTP.

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