Strategies for endurance riding (Everesting/Audax)
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I completed Hamburg - Berlin, 327 km in 15 hours. 11 hours and 23 minutes moving time. A lot of time was spent in the dense cities, but once it got to the Elbe Radweg it was easy. My previous longest distance was 170 km, and I've only done around four metric centuries so far, so I am quite happy with it. Beautiful ride along the iron curtain.
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Reactivating an old thread
New year, new challenge.
Came up with the idea of everesting already last year(before Covid), but thought this would be a stupid idea. With all the Covid going on, "stupid ideas" became the new norm for me.
So I told my girlfriend, also cyclist but not as crazy, that I would like to give it a try this year. Surprisingly she offered her support and also a local friend, who is living at the bottom of that very ascent, also promised to support me.
So, currently I am crunching the numbers and wondering, which tempo is the right one. 60-70% FTP should not be to far off, is it?
I have also not decided which bike to use yet, but I guess my old bike is actually the better one....Geometry is a bit more relaxed, uses compact chainset and last but not least, is lighter.
The ascend I choose is my favorit climb which in addition wasn't everested before. Roughly 450 m of elevation over 5 km. So it is a comparably long route, but I simply love it, even though on warm and sunny days it doesn't provide much cover.
Anyway.... There is a nice (and expensive
) Hotel at the very top of the road and we are planning to check in the day before and check out the day after the try. Hopefully they will let me use their parking lot to establish some kind of a basecamp, but on the other hand. Why shouldn't they?
Road is quite narrow but dead end. So on a week day this should lead to only little traffic. All in all there are three corners on the entire route. So this should work. Wanted to start quite early with or before sunrise, have a breakfast stop at around 9-10, and then see how it goes.
Now what really worries me is nutrition. I tend to bonk from time to time. In general I tend to simply not eat enough during excercise, I simply don't get hungry before it is too late. For that reason I am thinking about getting myself a CGM (continues Glucose Measurement) device. Used one over the last two weeks out of curiosity and even though the software is still buggy and for the time being, one has to check one's cellphone, this device is able to show clear numbers about your glucose levels far earlier that I would feel a coming depletion. This in combination with a "first aid glucose kit", like two gels attached to the bike, should get me back to the basecamp, where "proper" nutrition can be used.
So i learned from this thread that though one should focus on carbs, one should have some savory alternatives.
What is your thought on fluid intake? Iso-drinks or rather plain, or maybe slightly flavoured water + solid food?
According to Kreuzotter.de I will end up burning around 8000 kcal, or 2 kg of carbs
That's roughly 100 gr. / lap.
I will have to check if my stomach is able to handle this quantity under load and which source works best, but i am not sure if that really can be tested before the attempt. What might work fine for the first 3,6 or even 10 hours, might not work the rest of the day.
Anyone else who will give it a try this year?
And one question to those who have completed an attempt already. How long did it take you to recover? I was thinking about doing either a HauteRoute event (3 day) or the "les 7 Majeurs" two weeks later....too early?
New year, new challenge.
Came up with the idea of everesting already last year(before Covid), but thought this would be a stupid idea. With all the Covid going on, "stupid ideas" became the new norm for me.
So I told my girlfriend, also cyclist but not as crazy, that I would like to give it a try this year. Surprisingly she offered her support and also a local friend, who is living at the bottom of that very ascent, also promised to support me.
So, currently I am crunching the numbers and wondering, which tempo is the right one. 60-70% FTP should not be to far off, is it?
I have also not decided which bike to use yet, but I guess my old bike is actually the better one....Geometry is a bit more relaxed, uses compact chainset and last but not least, is lighter.
The ascend I choose is my favorit climb which in addition wasn't everested before. Roughly 450 m of elevation over 5 km. So it is a comparably long route, but I simply love it, even though on warm and sunny days it doesn't provide much cover.
Anyway.... There is a nice (and expensive
) Hotel at the very top of the road and we are planning to check in the day before and check out the day after the try. Hopefully they will let me use their parking lot to establish some kind of a basecamp, but on the other hand. Why shouldn't they?Road is quite narrow but dead end. So on a week day this should lead to only little traffic. All in all there are three corners on the entire route. So this should work. Wanted to start quite early with or before sunrise, have a breakfast stop at around 9-10, and then see how it goes.
Now what really worries me is nutrition. I tend to bonk from time to time. In general I tend to simply not eat enough during excercise, I simply don't get hungry before it is too late. For that reason I am thinking about getting myself a CGM (continues Glucose Measurement) device. Used one over the last two weeks out of curiosity and even though the software is still buggy and for the time being, one has to check one's cellphone, this device is able to show clear numbers about your glucose levels far earlier that I would feel a coming depletion. This in combination with a "first aid glucose kit", like two gels attached to the bike, should get me back to the basecamp, where "proper" nutrition can be used.
So i learned from this thread that though one should focus on carbs, one should have some savory alternatives.
What is your thought on fluid intake? Iso-drinks or rather plain, or maybe slightly flavoured water + solid food?
According to Kreuzotter.de I will end up burning around 8000 kcal, or 2 kg of carbs
That's roughly 100 gr. / lap.
I will have to check if my stomach is able to handle this quantity under load and which source works best, but i am not sure if that really can be tested before the attempt. What might work fine for the first 3,6 or even 10 hours, might not work the rest of the day.
Anyone else who will give it a try this year?
And one question to those who have completed an attempt already. How long did it take you to recover? I was thinking about doing either a HauteRoute event (3 day) or the "les 7 Majeurs" two weeks later....too early?
Interested in buying Carbonsport Lightweight wheels with broken spokes.
BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod
BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod
Well in hindsight - it's not anywhere near as good as being fat adapted (bonk proof) / not needing to use any carbs at all.
But that's months of proper adaptation - so depends on when you'd be going to do it.
It's all about the adventure 
.
.Lozaen, As you can tell from the thread, I did an Everest,and two weeks later did a 10k roaming (10,000m, 400km, <36 hours). I was shattered after the Everesting (3 days off), but was Ok by the time I did the 10k roaming. I found the roaming to be much easier because I could sleep in my own bed after the first day, and because the need to go 400km required more variation in terrain, and thus different muscle stresses. However, I attempted a second Everesting after the 10k roaming, and failed because I had over-taxed myself doing the two previous events.
Locally, and with Everesting records becoming a thing, I observe the following strategies:
General:
-It's a good idea to have non-technical (straight) desents for speed, and for avoiding errors while tired, so your course sounds great
-Use the grade to figure out lightness vs aero trade-offs for the bike.
-Support makes a big difference psychologically
-It's easier if you keep calorie demands separate from liquid requirements. If you go the sweet drink route, you may not drink enough. If you are dehydrated, you may not eat enough. If you drink too many electrolytes, you can have problems too (vomiting, nausea, emotional disturbances). For me, I drink two things:water, and a home-made drink that has some dilute orange juice, cocunut water for electrolytes, and some honey on the bike, but have tea, coffee, commerical electrolyte replacemtments (Powerade). What matters is what you like to drink.
- The best bike is the one you can ride for a long time without getting sore neck/back/arms/hands. Your legs are going to get tired on any bike, but if all you can think of is your aching back, you are unlikely to finish. So this year I am thinking more about frame geometry and compliance and less about the right wheels, or the amount of aero, or how many grams I can save. And because you will likely not try again if you fail, make sure that everything on the bike is tried and true, but not too old especially tires, chains, brakes for disposibles. It's a shame if a mechanical takes away your opportunity.
-Make sure stuff like charging your phone, bike computer, lights are foolproof and you can do it while exhausted (or make sure your support can do it for you).
Alternatives to consider:
1) Keep it slow and aerobic (your 60-70% of FTP) and prioritize shallower gradients over length. Easier on the body, but you really have to think about food and hydration. FWIW, I find that real food works better for me pyschologically, even if in theory I won't see benefit in time. Same for eating., Eating something that isn't "perfect" that you will actually eat is better than not eating.... e.g. I like a tuna fish sandwich even thought in theory the fat in the mayonaise and the protein isn't likely to be useful except if I eat it early. This implies more real food (I like jam or honey sandwiches or pancakes, rice cakes with dried fruit, bananas, grapes, apple slices, oranges, date bars (fig newtons), donuts.
2) Get it over with as fast as possible, and prioritize short length over steepness (but you have to be really strong-OTOH it simplifies eating-world record holder did it on sugar solution. This is the GC rider strategy, but I have a friend just 2 years younger than me who used a similar solution. Every one of his laps was faster than my PR for that mountain.
3) Carb-based vs fat based. As has been pointed out, the latter takes longer to prepare for, and doing more long rides during that preparation. Nevertheless, I am thinking of trying a double Everesting, and I will do long (>200km) rides as soon as the weather here allows to improve my endurance riding. Going fat-based implies the slow and aerobic strategy I think. What saved my butt was having caffeinated energy gels at the end of the ride.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!
Locally, and with Everesting records becoming a thing, I observe the following strategies:
General:
-It's a good idea to have non-technical (straight) desents for speed, and for avoiding errors while tired, so your course sounds great
-Use the grade to figure out lightness vs aero trade-offs for the bike.
-Support makes a big difference psychologically
-It's easier if you keep calorie demands separate from liquid requirements. If you go the sweet drink route, you may not drink enough. If you are dehydrated, you may not eat enough. If you drink too many electrolytes, you can have problems too (vomiting, nausea, emotional disturbances). For me, I drink two things:water, and a home-made drink that has some dilute orange juice, cocunut water for electrolytes, and some honey on the bike, but have tea, coffee, commerical electrolyte replacemtments (Powerade). What matters is what you like to drink.
- The best bike is the one you can ride for a long time without getting sore neck/back/arms/hands. Your legs are going to get tired on any bike, but if all you can think of is your aching back, you are unlikely to finish. So this year I am thinking more about frame geometry and compliance and less about the right wheels, or the amount of aero, or how many grams I can save. And because you will likely not try again if you fail, make sure that everything on the bike is tried and true, but not too old especially tires, chains, brakes for disposibles. It's a shame if a mechanical takes away your opportunity.
-Make sure stuff like charging your phone, bike computer, lights are foolproof and you can do it while exhausted (or make sure your support can do it for you).
Alternatives to consider:
1) Keep it slow and aerobic (your 60-70% of FTP) and prioritize shallower gradients over length. Easier on the body, but you really have to think about food and hydration. FWIW, I find that real food works better for me pyschologically, even if in theory I won't see benefit in time. Same for eating., Eating something that isn't "perfect" that you will actually eat is better than not eating.... e.g. I like a tuna fish sandwich even thought in theory the fat in the mayonaise and the protein isn't likely to be useful except if I eat it early. This implies more real food (I like jam or honey sandwiches or pancakes, rice cakes with dried fruit, bananas, grapes, apple slices, oranges, date bars (fig newtons), donuts.
2) Get it over with as fast as possible, and prioritize short length over steepness (but you have to be really strong-OTOH it simplifies eating-world record holder did it on sugar solution. This is the GC rider strategy, but I have a friend just 2 years younger than me who used a similar solution. Every one of his laps was faster than my PR for that mountain.
3) Carb-based vs fat based. As has been pointed out, the latter takes longer to prepare for, and doing more long rides during that preparation. Nevertheless, I am thinking of trying a double Everesting, and I will do long (>200km) rides as soon as the weather here allows to improve my endurance riding. Going fat-based implies the slow and aerobic strategy I think. What saved my butt was having caffeinated energy gels at the end of the ride.
Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!
Last edited by fruitfly on Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Factor Ostro
Thanks for the feedback, highly appreciated 
Since I am planning to do the attempt early in the season for various reasons, it's probably too late to adapt to a Carbs-Free diet this time.
I will keep you updated
Since I am planning to do the attempt early in the season for various reasons, it's probably too late to adapt to a Carbs-Free diet this time.
I will keep you updated
Interested in buying Carbonsport Lightweight wheels with broken spokes.
BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod
BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod
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IanisCercariolo
- Posts: 70
- Joined: Sat Jun 06, 2020 9:58 am
- Location: Vaud, Switzerland
Hi Lozaen,
If it can help, I did it in 11h45m with 12 bottles of carbohydrates mix (30g in 650 mL) and 20 gels.
With my glucose monitoring I could check that it was spot on ! I just had a protein shaker mid-ride, but only carbohydrates otherwise, I thought it would have been hard to digest fat or "solid food".
For pacing, I forced myself to slow down when I was over 82% of max HR and I could probably not do more, so it was indeed a good threshold.
Regarding power, I averaged 200W during the climbs (FTP @285W for 70kg), and as mentioned I could definitely not push harder than that at the end of the day.
The legs felt hard during the next two days but no big deal, (I took a protein shaker at the end, it surely helped).
I hope it may help you, good luck
If it can help, I did it in 11h45m with 12 bottles of carbohydrates mix (30g in 650 mL) and 20 gels.
With my glucose monitoring I could check that it was spot on ! I just had a protein shaker mid-ride, but only carbohydrates otherwise, I thought it would have been hard to digest fat or "solid food".
For pacing, I forced myself to slow down when I was over 82% of max HR and I could probably not do more, so it was indeed a good threshold.
Regarding power, I averaged 200W during the climbs (FTP @285W for 70kg), and as mentioned I could definitely not push harder than that at the end of the day.
The legs felt hard during the next two days but no big deal, (I took a protein shaker at the end, it surely helped).
I hope it may help you, good luck
Here I am again, but this year I am going to attempt a double Everesting.I am currently the 9th oldest person in the world to complete an Everesting, so this is pretty much a stretch goal for me. My training strategy so far has been to do a lot of vertical Sept '20-June '21 (currently 230,000m), and I expect to hit 15,000m/week this week. This elevation has mostly come on a trainer because of Canadian winter weather and COVID travel restrictions, but I hope that travel restrictions will be lifted next week so that I can get on real hills again. I am retired, so I don't have constraints on training time.
My questions are 2:
1) Assuming an end of June attempt, what's the best way to use my time in the first three weeks of June before a taper week?
2) Distance will be about 500km, and I am assuming I will be on my bike for about 30-35h. Thoughts about nutrition? There is a small shopping mall at the foot of the hill where I can get sandwiches and fast food, plus a supermarket, and I intend to take meal breaks.
Thanks in advance!
My questions are 2:
1) Assuming an end of June attempt, what's the best way to use my time in the first three weeks of June before a taper week?
2) Distance will be about 500km, and I am assuming I will be on my bike for about 30-35h. Thoughts about nutrition? There is a small shopping mall at the foot of the hill where I can get sandwiches and fast food, plus a supermarket, and I intend to take meal breaks.
Thanks in advance!
Factor Ostro
I did an Ironman (3.9km swim, 180km ride, 42.2km run) a few weeks ago. No carbs. Just 3 boiled eggs on the bike. Aerobically fresh AF, could have kept going. Legs cooked however (not enough run mileage) in lead in.
How long before attempt? Again, would suggest getting fat adapted etc.
It's all about the adventure .
.Well done - that is a feat of endurance for sure.Conza wrote: ↑Mon Jun 28, 2021 1:59 am
I did an Ironman (3.9km swim, 180km ride, 42.2km run) a few weeks ago. No carbs. Just 3 boiled eggs on the bike. Aerobically fresh AF, could have kept going. Legs cooked however (not enough run mileage) in lead in.
How long before attempt? Again, would suggest getting fat adapted etc.
What we can only guess at though is your power output - heart rate would be very useful, but work done and how it varies are the really useful measures I think. Everesting is a completely different thing with that spiky power output, by necessity. The Ironman is of course demanding with the combination of the different activities.
Thanks! Doing an Everesting is what originally kicked off my endurance/fitness journey: https://www.strava.com/activities/216743529/overview. That lead to, well - what next? How to use this new fitness? So IM it was, quite a few months later.tjvirden wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:25 amWell done - that is a feat of endurance for sure.
What we can only guess at though is your power output - heart rate would be very useful, but work done and how it varies are the really useful measures I think. Everesting is a completely different thing with that spiky power output, by necessity. The Ironman is of course demanding with the combination of the different activities.
Happy to provide whatever data. Really no different HRM wise between swim/bike/run, and the Everesting. Very similar conditions between last IM and this one. Tons of head wind etc. 2015 vs. 2021 - https://mywindsock.com/activity/5423613451/.
IM Ride
IM Run:
Everesting HRM:
Pushed more watts in IM it seems, but Everesting had a lot of 'lost time' given so hot (42C) w/ cool downs. Was so carb'd up etc. I was gagging at certain points.
Not sure about any 'spiky power output'?
It's all about the adventure .
.Ah, this is excellent and generous of you to put it up.
Putting some numbers on the plate, especially from both types of event, can be of real benefit to anyone who wishes to pursue endurance! Thanks.
I'm going to digest what you've posted and then add a few clarifications to my earlier thoughts.
Putting some numbers on the plate, especially from both types of event, can be of real benefit to anyone who wishes to pursue endurance! Thanks.
I'm going to digest what you've posted and then add a few clarifications to my earlier thoughts.
Unfortunately, my enthusiasm has waned due to the estimated power; it's not much use!
HR is still interesting (useful) and broadly shows differences that might be expected - the variance in HR being a little bigger on the IM bike leg compared to IM run and much bigger on the Everesting - that's what I meant by the spiky power output; by necessity you work hard going up the hill, then have a shorter stint at low/no power coming down again. That is a significant difference in physiological demand - which can of course be trained for, to an extent. Improving ones ability to manage without
much additional carbohydrate intake (during the event) is definitely something I agree with.
Although I'm nowhere near cutting edge research, I don't believe that the physiology of human (mammal) performance is close to being unravelled; the enormous variation in individuals both in terms of simple physiological factors (e.g. types of "muscle fibre") and lifestyles makes it the work of centuries. Important small steps have been made of course (fundamental chemistry/bio-chemistry). Each person is an experiment over a lifetime!
HR is still interesting (useful) and broadly shows differences that might be expected - the variance in HR being a little bigger on the IM bike leg compared to IM run and much bigger on the Everesting - that's what I meant by the spiky power output; by necessity you work hard going up the hill, then have a shorter stint at low/no power coming down again. That is a significant difference in physiological demand - which can of course be trained for, to an extent. Improving ones ability to manage without
much additional carbohydrate intake (during the event) is definitely something I agree with.
Although I'm nowhere near cutting edge research, I don't believe that the physiology of human (mammal) performance is close to being unravelled; the enormous variation in individuals both in terms of simple physiological factors (e.g. types of "muscle fibre") and lifestyles makes it the work of centuries. Important small steps have been made of course (fundamental chemistry/bio-chemistry). Each person is an experiment over a lifetime!
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Tifosiphil
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:09 pm
Has anyone done a vEveresting and an IRL Everesting and could compare them for me please?
I did a vEveresting a few weeks ago as my partner was away for the weekend. Did it up Alpe Du Zwift in 10:30 about 13 hour ride time total as I had to walk the dog inbetween some of the efforts
My local climb is obviously going to be much shorter so less like the 1 hour efforts followed by 15min descents on Zwift but I'm sticking with a largely similar plan of 120-150minutes of riding, stop at the car and have 10minutes off the bike to eat, drink and swap bottles and then continue. Hopefully I can get it done in 4 or 5 sessions like this
I did a vEveresting a few weeks ago as my partner was away for the weekend. Did it up Alpe Du Zwift in 10:30 about 13 hour ride time total as I had to walk the dog inbetween some of the efforts
My local climb is obviously going to be much shorter so less like the 1 hour efforts followed by 15min descents on Zwift but I'm sticking with a largely similar plan of 120-150minutes of riding, stop at the car and have 10minutes off the bike to eat, drink and swap bottles and then continue. Hopefully I can get it done in 4 or 5 sessions like this
