Alternative to Trainer Road

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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OnTheRivet
Posts: 728
Joined: Sat Jul 24, 2010 9:41 pm

by OnTheRivet

I don't do anything structured unless I'm racing and I build my training plan leading up to C, B, and A events.

by Weenie


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Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

Hexsense wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 7:24 pm
Do you all do Polarized training year round?
Like Polarized training and then switching what to do on the interval days by base phase, build phase, specialty phase 's appropriate interval.

Or it's mostly base phase things, and not quite applicable to other phases?
Base training is polarized and then more specific as race season approaches
We're lucky in Australia in that our climate is so mild we can ride and race outside all year round :thumbup:

Edit: Well apart from when half the country is on fire.....

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I took the plunge on WKO5................ but I think I'm gonna stick with GC. Amazingly, GC's interface is more intuitive which is saying something

Andrew69
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by Andrew69

WKO5 does take a bit of getting used to, but once you know your way around, I found it superior to GC
There are also quite a few educational vids on YT for WKO5 which I found helpful

Lozaen
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 pm
Location: Switzerland

by Lozaen

Has anyone already tried this adaptive, AI based new Trainer Road?
As far as i understand, it is not rolled out for the public yet, but a couple of thousand athletes were able to use it during development.
Something similar is done by a german company named "enduco"....not sure if this is comparable, but they seem to have some nice features....will give it a try starting from next week (They offer a 2 week free test period)
Interested in buying Carbonsport Lightweight wheels with broken spokes.

BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod

Andrew69
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by Andrew69

There is a thread on slowtwitch discussing the "AI" based TR programs and its probably not actually AI just a "best fit" based on the huge data sample they have
So basically will be recommending a plan based on a few variables (such as training time, years training, age, etc) and matching that to data of what worked for others with the same basic variables, but it wont be actually AI based where it caters to your person situation and needs (such as a coach would do)

Lozaen
Posts: 124
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by Lozaen

According to the TR Podcast (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAYVLch8tEA) they claim, that their algorithm actually does exactly that.
Monitor your training in "real time" and adjust accordingly.
I will look up ST. Thanks for that hint.
Interested in buying Carbonsport Lightweight wheels with broken spokes.

BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod

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LiKuid
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:09 pm

by LiKuid

Curious how this AI thing is going to affect the performance especially for amateur athletes. As the algorithms get fine tuned and empowered with even more data, i guess it's gonna be a huge breakthrough in training plan offerings. Trainerroad is a huge step forward in terms of historical data of training and that's gonna help them improve their algorithms quickly i guess. Didnt know that Xert is on a similar path. Great days ahead of us... especially for us time crunched indoor enthusiasts

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

I guess I will pose my skepticism over TR's "AI" addition as a series of questions:

- Are FTP tests better than real world power curve data for determining training intensity?
- Is there value in individualizing interval length/intensity to a rider's specific strengths and goals?
- Can adjusting training intensity more frequently yield faster adaptations?

Basically my feeling is this is still a missed opportunity. For $20/mo I want customized workouts built around my individual strengths/weaknesses, goals and rides, as well as intensity determined from training data (so I never have to do an FTP test again). From what I'm seeing this still requires regular FTP testing and only provides suggestions to canned workouts. Maybe their workout library is extensive enough to not need to build things from scratch. Maybe they are really wed to that IP. IDK. Either way I'm skeptical.

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LiKuid
Posts: 73
Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:09 pm

by LiKuid

My view is that by joining the adaptive training schema of TR you just participate in the biggest ever athlete training survey. I believe they are gonna make good use of the data they gather, as it is clearly a very exciting opportunity with huge financial potential as well.
However, I wouldnt expect any serious changes in their training regimes from day one, not even in the first year. AI algorithms will take a while to work well and till then it's just trial n error. That's just my take of course as a tr subscriber.

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HotWireMyHeart
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:46 am

by HotWireMyHeart

It's not like they're starting with no data at this point and TrainerRoad will need to implement the adaptive stuff and then work on the adaptive product with the data they get. They already have a huge amount of data- another year isn't going to tell them anything new. Their algorithm either works or it doesn't when they launch. Though they can tweak it after customer feedback as time goes on of course.
TrainerRoad has been one of the least sophisticated training systems for years, well behind the Xert/WK04/etc curve. Pun intended- because if they're still basing everything off that one point on an athletes power curve and ignoring differences in lower threshold power and maximum sprint etc then they're still off the pace for me.

Lozaen
Posts: 124
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:44 pm
Location: Switzerland

by Lozaen

Well, than maybe you should have a look at their podcast, where they explain what they are doing.
It seems, that they actually measure/determine your capability in 7x3 dimensions....should that be enough?

Will look into Xert as well :thumbup:
Interested in buying Carbonsport Lightweight wheels with broken spokes.

BMC Teammachine SLR01 Disc Team 2018|Ridley Helium | Kuota Kross|Cannondale Scalpel 29 Hi-Mod

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

Lozaen wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 9:14 pm
Well, than maybe you should have a look at their podcast, where they explain what they are doing.
It seems, that they actually measure/determine your capability in 7x3 dimensions....should that be enough?

Will look into Xert as well :thumbup:
The issue is that some believe that what they say they are capable of in the podcast and what they are truly capable of delivering may be substantially different.
Have a read of this thread on slowtwitch and decide for yourself
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slow ... ead#unread

cheapvega
Posts: 380
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:12 pm

by cheapvega

HotWireMyHeart wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:30 pm
It's not like they're starting with no data at this point and TrainerRoad will need to implement the adaptive stuff and then work on the adaptive product with the data they get. They already have a huge amount of data- another year isn't going to tell them anything new. Their algorithm either works or it doesn't when they launch. Though they can tweak it after customer feedback as time goes on of course.
TrainerRoad has been one of the least sophisticated training systems for years, well behind the Xert/WK04/etc curve. Pun intended- because if they're still basing everything off that one point on an athletes power curve and ignoring differences in lower threshold power and maximum sprint etc then they're still off the pace for me.
Yes, they are def underutilizing the data

I feel like there is so much more potential. For example I would love to be able to plug a ride or route into an app, and have the app analyze the route in the context of my power curve and FRC, and develop individualized workouts and even a training schedule to get stronger at that ride. The same could be estimated for different kinds of races and events as well even if you don't have the actual route or past performances to judge on. That would be worth paying for and to me seems like something that's possible based on FRC/power curve data.

by Weenie


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jlok
Posts: 2395
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

cheapvega wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 6:02 pm
I guess I will pose my skepticism over TR's "AI" addition as a series of questions:

- Are FTP tests better than real world power curve data for determining training intensity?
- Is there value in individualizing interval length/intensity to a rider's specific strengths and goals?
- Can adjusting training intensity more frequently yield faster adaptations?

Basically my feeling is this is still a missed opportunity. For $20/mo I want customized workouts built around my individual strengths/weaknesses, goals and rides, as well as intensity determined from training data (so I never have to do an FTP test again). From what I'm seeing this still requires regular FTP testing and only provides suggestions to canned workouts. Maybe their workout library is extensive enough to not need to build things from scratch. Maybe they are really wed to that IP. IDK. Either way I'm skeptical.
FTP = 20mins steady maximal work * 0.95. The problem of FTP is that it has an assumption of the same capability/capacity to work above FTP (i.e. FRC or HIE, or W' capacity, similar ideas) among all riders. If two riders have the same FTP, would they necessarily sprint the same?

If TR "AI" workouts are based on FTP, it is flawed fundamentally, or the "AI" is not I enough to understand different riders and prescribe more appropriate workouts based on rider's goal (to sprint better or to climb better).
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