Game Changers - the documentary

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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by AJS914

g32ecs wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:59 am
Joe Rogan had Chris Kresser and James Wilks on his podcast for a debate

Have a listen. Pretty interesting. Both parties had holes in their arguments. My conclusion is there's no right or wrong person in the debate.

I lost respect for Wilks. He just acted like a bully and "defeated" Kresser by proving some minor points. Rogan was ill-prepared to mediate the debate.

Wilks showed in no way, shape, or form that being 100% plant based makes an athlete faster. He also didn't prove his assertion that meat is fundamentally bad for you.

They could have had a nice conversation and advanced the cause for everybody. They both agree that most of the diet should be plant based. Kresser believes that if you are eating high quality animal products (grass fed, wild caught fish) in addition to your largely plant based plate that you are not doing yourself any harm and that maybe you are eating the ideal diet.

My conclusion is that for athletic performance and optimal health you do need to eat mostly fruits and vegetables. You do need adequate protein to support recovery and muscle building. I don't think it matters how one gets that. It's easier to get it with meat. If you are vegan you need to be a bit more thoughtful and probably supplement a few nutrients.
Last edited by AJS914 on Mon Dec 09, 2019 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie

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by Etienne

AJS914 wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:07 pm
My conclusion is that for athletic performance and optimal health you do need to eat mostly fruits and vegetables. You do need adequate protein to support recovery and muscle building. I don't think it matters how one gets that. It's easier to get it with meat. If you are vegan you need to be a bit more thoughtful and probably supplement a few nutrients.
Well, that's a fairly balanced conclusion ... in fact, nutrition is all about balance and the surest way to achieve that is through quality, diversity and adequate quantity.

The problem is that not everybody got this by culture or education, and if you were taught to eat mostly processed foods, burgers and 400g steaks ... there's a big chance you will see improvements when you'll discover that balance is key when it comes to nutrition.

Then many people see that diet change as a redemption ... hence diet becoming the new religion, as AeroObsessive mentionned.

But eating is not all about nutrition, there are also about socio-cultural, hedonic and economical questions ... from those points of view, athletes are a very specific population and prone to specific and unconventional practices.

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by glepore

AeroObsessive wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:34 pm
Game Changes has helped to highlight some excellent points which I would like to share:

1) all nutritional documentaries should be utterly ignored on all levels.
2) diet advice is like the proverbial - everyone has one.
3) show me 10 world class cyclists and I'll show you 10 different diets. That in of itself should tell people something.
4) diet is the new religion, so eat like I do or forever be damned... heathens.
5) the plural of anecdote is not data.
This is the best post on this thread.

BTW, I think aero is someone formerly here reincarnated :)
Cysco Ti custom Campy SR mechanical (6.9);Berk custom (5.6); Serotta Ottrott(6.8) ; Anvil Custom steel Etap;1996 Colnago Technos Record

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by patchsurfer

No-one's mentioned, so I'll chip in a little about Forks over Knives - also on NetFlix. There's a bit of attention given in there to endothelial function, which was mentioned further up in the thread. It's a pretty turgid watch, but there's some good info in it and some good jumping off points for further research, if that's the kind of way you operate - I do.

I went vegan about a fortnight ago, mostly for reasons largely unrelated to cycling (*) - although I'm enjoying the pay-off, seem to be losing weight at a sensible rate and plenty of energy. Not really having any problem finding stuff to eat.

(*) My daughter has poorly functioning kidneys after a horrible bout of sepsis, my sister has just been diagnosed with lung cancer that's spread to her pelvis and lymph nodes, I lost my dad to cancer a few years ago, and my wife suffers from hypothyroidism and high cholesterol. Seemed like time to stop pissing about.

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by Conza

Pro tip:
Regarding veganism, in comparing anecdotes and personal experiences of happy and healthy vegans to the general population, there are several points that ought to be considered.

First, the general population is a poor comparison group. This group is eating a daily concoction of slow poisons, in particular, all manner of sugars, processed grains, and industrial seed oils, each of which is terrible even on its own, and far worse in a self-reinforcing cocktail of all three.

An implication of this comparison group issue is that even if X seems far better than Y, this does not necessarily tell us that X is optimal. When Y (the general population’s diet) is really, really bad (as it is), there should be quite a number of ways to improve on that. Another trouble with anecdotes is fairly wide individual variation in tolerance for various conditions and foods.

Second, in this light, it is important to note that going vegan is often combined with getting off of a conventional diet. This also usually entails reducing or eliminating most processed foods and adopting whole foods. It is often also found together with above-average awareness of other (non-dietary) health issues and practices (sleep, activity, stress, abstention from harmful recreational substances). These factors are in themselves already hugely beneficial. And whatever the whole foods are that are adopted, they are likely to be better than whatever processed foods are abandoned. The real confusion is that this is so regardless of plant versus animal source (dairy is more complex I think). For example, many of the negative meat study results (besides the serious design problems with most of the popular epidemiological studies in general) come from chemically preserved, rather than fresh, meats. Such factors conspire to heavily confound interpretations of what, exactly, it is that has caused noted positive or negative effects. The cessation of previous negative effects, for example, is often caused mainly by the successful elimination of harmful items.

Third, my reading on the health effects of veganism indicates that many of the negative issues appear longer-term only after a process of gradual degeneration. Homo sapiens are able to live only on plants, but my understanding is that in evolutionary terms, this is primarily a residual ability useful as a fall-back for bad hunting periods. Our digestive systems are not built for relying on plants, unlike, say, those of gorillas, who eat only plants, and whose digestive systems are accordingly completely unlike ours in the amount of space and energy dedicated to various digestive organs. For example, a massive gorilla digestive organ that serves as a plant fermentation tank corresponds to our tiny vestigial appendix, according to Barry Graves. One good critical chapter on the long-term health effects of veganism is Chapter 4 of The Paleo Solution by Loren Cordain.

The Big Fat Surprise, written by the person the above story link was about, also has up to date analysis of the health effects of various food categories and fat types, etc. There has been a great deal of very poor information pushed in this field over the past decades, which has happened to correlate with 1) the making of a great deal of money from “food” products and pharmaceutical products (many of which treat chronic effects of those same “food” products) and 2) an unprecedented and rapidly worsening health crisis. Nina Teicholz’s book goes a long way toward clarifying where some of that ubiquitous misinformation has come from and replacing it with something better grounded in research.
— Konrad Graf, ... tal-health
Anyone who watched Game Changers with an open mind (I did), if they're intellectually honest — ought to watch the 'other side' as well.
It's all about the adventure :o .

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by patchsurfer

There's a couple of interesting studies cited in forks over knives, re the dairy complication referred to - one detailing the effects of casein upon cancer rates in mice, and the other is the China Study ... rd_Project which, given it was undertaken in 1980's rural China, is kind of interesting. I'd think that the possibility of massive amounts of processed foods is as low in that population / timeset as you're likely to find anywhere on earth, but that's an assumption - I've really no idea.

I don't know that I'll stay strictly vegan - I'm 200 yards away from the sea and fresh fish, my wife goes goat hunting periodically. I have a target race at the start of June and I'm using it as an interesting exercise to see how I go and diversify what I cook.

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