Give me a training plan

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RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

So i am 39, 5ft 7, 61kg, with a true 1hr ftp of 218. I can sustain about 250w for 10min. I can sprint 600w (i never train for this and it shows).

I have about 7 hrs a week to train, with a single block up to maybe 3hrs. I have yet to peak with my current “training.” I have a direct drive trainer with zwift, and an assortment of bikes with power meters, hr monitors, etc.

If i want to improve my 1hr ftp, and improve my 5-10min efforts (current priority favors the efforts), what training would you suggest?

by Weenie


Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

Sign up to trainer road, read the blogs and follow their base buid plans.

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LouisN
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by LouisN

From your other posts we know a little bit about yourself.
From what I understood about what you like, I would suggest you to search for a competent coach in your area.
Your "needs" are specific, a good coach will consider these first when tailoring a plan for you.
Of course, he(she) will take care of all the "technical" stuff to trigger the right adaptations to get you where you want to be regarding your goals.
First, the coach needs to know your sports history first, what you like ( for ex.: crushing Strava short Intervals between 2-6 min. does that mean you like "virtual reality apps" in the winter ? maybe....)), what you don't like ( ex.: "boring" Interval training). What are your strenghts and weaknesses, available training time, what's you main activity (job), where you live ( in Canada, you'll likely have to bike inside for 5 months), you do other sports (XC skiing, fatbike, etc...) ?
If you're not into learning how to juggle with all the data from training apps, and do the correct changes by yourself, have a coach do all this "stuff" for you, that's what they're good at. I would add that a competent coach will give a follow up on his(her) plans and correct things on the way (for example, you did one workout and hated it, he(she)'ll find something else that motivates YOU to go ahead and do the hard stuff while liking it !!

Louis :)

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Are you looking for a periodized plan or a general year-long plan?

Can’t help you with periodized since thats just too specific and I know nothing about you. For a general year-long plan:

In general, I would say you should have a solid long ride each week, and one hard tempo session (probably 20-30 minutes at 85-90% of lactate threshold or so) as your basic minimum. Everything else easy. ********These are just guidelines, so I hope if you take anything away from this, it's the underlying principles of what is being suggested and why, and you're not simply copy/pasting. ********

Once you’re ready, add in some combination of:
1) three to five 30 second sprints with full recovery
2) extend the one tempo session by 5 minutes (up to 45 minutes max) - these will be very hard rides
3) only one of the following:
----a second, shorter tempo session (say 15 minutes)
----long “intervals” at maybe 90-95% lactate threshold (something like 3x15m with 5-8 minute recovery or 2x20 at 90% or 2x30 at 85% or mix it up each week)

Once you’ve more or less adapted to the above, feel free to play around with either the duration of the tempo, number of interval reps, or shorten the time between the intervals. You can skip the intervals altogether and just do the tempos. Or mix it up week by week. Do one hard ride, followed by two the next week, back to one, mix up the hard rides themselves, doesn't really matter since all we care about is how much time you spent at or around 85-95% of lactate threshold each week - doesn't really matter how you achieve that time spent in zone.

*In a generic, year-long training plan, my personal view is that you should only have at most two hard rides a week (one tempo one interval, two tempos, etc.), which obviously varies from a periodized plan which can have you doing as many as 4 hard rides during your peak phase. The problem is, we can’t prescribe too many hard intervals or tempo sessions because otherwise you will peak (plateau) and the only way to continue your improvement will be to add even more intervals, which is impossible (nobody can do 5 interval days a week every week, well not unless you're on PEDs).

**If you havent caught on yet, we are trying to gradually maximize your “time in zone” (ie time at or around your lactate threshold) without impeding your overall aerboic endurance and slow twitch muscular development achieved by lots of slower riding.

***The above is not a training plan. These are just some basic guidelines, which you should feel free to experiment with. If you're busy one week or feel like crap, that's fine to skip the long ride or the tempo session (just don't try to make it up the next week!). You're not going to lose anything by riding easy for a week or two or even a month. It's about gradual, consistent gains, not about how hard you rode during any particular phase.

Make sure everything else is super slow and easy.
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RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

Thanks. Will adapt what i do to try this. My weakness is the long slow rides, as i always want to throw in a hard segment or two at full gas for motivation

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

RocketRacing wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:20 pm
Thanks. Will adapt what i do to try this. My weakness is the long slow rides, as i always want to throw in a hard segment or two at full gas for motivation
A big misconeption repeated by the amateur endurance athlete is that going slow is supposedly some form of "recovery." There is no such thing as a "recovery" ride. Slow rides are equally purpose-driven and have been shown to have tremendous benefits to your overall aerobic fitness levels, and surprisingly, a slow effort is equally as effective at increasing your Vo2Max as intense interval training (mitochondria, capillaries, heart stroke volume etc., are highly stimulated at 60% of MaxHr).

Here's a simple explanation on the fallacy of the easy recovery ride:

(let's say a hard ride puts you at a -100 in terms of muscular damage and overall fatigue, and an slow ride puts you at -20, and your body recovers by units of +50 each day)

Day 1 - You do a hard ride. -100
Day 2 - You have recovered +50. You are now at -50 net. You do a slow ride. -20.
(you are at -70, you have "recovered" through your body's natural recovery process, NOT because you had a slow ride)
Day 3 - You have recovered +50. You are now at -20 net. You do another slow ride. -20
(you are now at -40, and have mostly recovered from Day 1, again, NOT because you had a slow ride)
Day 4 - You have recovered +50. You are now at net 0 and ready for whatever type of riding you want.
Day 7 - your body has mostly completed its adaptation to the efforts of Day 1.
Day 8 - your body has mostly adapted to your slow ride on Day 2.

**imagine if you had done a moderate effort on Day 2 at a score of say -40. That would obviously delay when you hit net 0 by a day and thus delay your ability to do a properly hard day untol Day 5. You could in theory do the hard day anyways starting from -20 on Day 4, but then you can easily see how quickly that would spiral out of control and you end up very negative after only a few cycles. And in a state of nonfunctional overtraining, your body is in too much shock and disrepair to even have the resources to make the adaptations on Day 7 or 8, making your Day 1 effort for naught. Hence you plateau and burnout.

For the more complicated explanation - easy exercise, massage, sauna, etc., can increase blood flow to your legs, which can increase the rate of your overall muscle repair and recovery. However, even slow riding results in additional stress and tears in your muscle fibers as well as creating lactic acid. In other words, there is no better recovery than complete bed rest with some very light exercise of limited duration simply to stimulate blood flow (i.e., NOT an easy ride). But if you take complete rest, you miss out on the Day 8 adaptations above from Day 2 above, which kind of sucks.

As you can see, you are trying to acvhieve a delicate balance between stress and recovery, while ensuring you are adequately stressing the right systems every day while giving your body a chance to "catch its breath" while under constant stress, NOT recovering from the stress altogether. This is what we call functional overtraining, and you need to constantly be in a state of functional overtraining to see consistent gains.
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RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

By that logic, instead of a hard ride, and slow rides, can i do something in between at “-60”. Or is it that the one very hard ride a week is better than many smaller bursts of intensity?

TheRich
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by TheRich

RocketRacing wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:32 pm
By that logic, instead of a hard ride, and slow rides, can i do something in between at “-60”. Or is it that the one very hard ride a week is better than many smaller bursts of intensity?
A common saying is that cyclists don't go hard enough on hard days and easy enough on easy days.

That "hard ride" should be very hard, so hard that you probably can't do it again the next day. If you don't go hard when you're supposed to be going hard, you're not getting as much out of it...and conversely, if you go too hard on the easy day, you end up more fatigued than you should be, and you end up not training in the zones called for in either case, which is less efficient, time wise.

If you only have seven hours per week, including a three hour ride (I assume it's on a weekend), you can probably beat yourself up pretty well during the week on the trainer. You don't really have the volume available for the big, and numerous, long rides required to push your endurance and FTP up from below, so going short, hard, and frequently
to pull them up from above when short and frequent is all you have is probably the best bet. A short easy ride is exercise, but it's not really "training."

But, as always, what you want to do is what you'll probably end up doing, so definitely do that. The best training plan is the one that the athlete follows.

If you want a way to visualize fitness and recovery, just use a Performance Management Chart. It's just a guide that doesn't overrule how you actually feel, but it's still a guide.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

RocketRacing wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:32 pm
By that logic, instead of a hard ride, and slow rides, can i do something in between at “-60”. Or is it that the one very hard ride a week is better than many smaller bursts of intensity?
What’s the point of the in between ride? If you are beneath 85% lactate threshold you arent effectively training your threshold...

One very hard ride a week isn't necessarily better than many smaller bursts of intensity, if the total time at that particular intensity is the same across both types of efforts.

The only problem is, I mentioned elsewhere, if you introduce too much intensity in an otherwise easy ride early on, you risk "switching" the easy ride into a fast-twitch fiber, glycogen dependent effort, when you want to be working your slow-twitch fibers and fat utilization efficiency.

But in theory, you could find a way to "break up" a 20 minute tempo session into say 10 or so pieces and sprinkle them into your otherwise long ride of say 3 hours and replace that 20 minute tempo session with an easy ride, and basically end up in the same place.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:26 am
RocketRacing wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:32 pm
By that logic, instead of a hard ride, and slow rides, can i do something in between at “-60”. Or is it that the one very hard ride a week is better than many smaller bursts of intensity?
What’s the point of the in between ride? If you are beneath 85% lactate threshold you arent effectively training your threshold...
I guess what I Am saying, is... instead of one 85% lactate threshold ride a week, and say three lower intensity rides, what is the physiological response of that vs the exact same time in 85% lactate threshold, and the exact same time in lower intensity, but mixed? Maybe you do the same four rides, and 1/4th of each ride is lactate threshold, with the remainder of the ride low intensity. it should be a wash for freshness/fitness and intensity by weeks end. I presume it has less gains in lactate threshold vs one long lactate threshold effort a week.

In effect, that is what I have been doing predominantly. In other words, I frequently challenge my 5-10min max effort goals, because it is a short effort, and not as taxing as say a 1hr ftp. IT still allows my overall ride efforts to remain tempo or endurance regions. I am much stronger now, but in looking at my strava freshness/fitness chart, my most rapid gains in ftp were in the spring when I did almost weekly runs up the alps de zwift at max (paced) sustainable effort. I was basically doing a 100% lactate threshold ride every week or two, usually followed by 2 days full rest. Then easy rides, then intervals, then back to a 100% day. There was no long easy ride except as a cooldown post big effort.

Right now I basically just do intervals all week long, with varying intensity and duration. I continue to gain, but maybe not quite as rapidly when I did one really hard effort a week.

I guess the core of all this is the following: IF I want to improve my 5-10 minute max efforts (lactate throshold), is it better to train for those short intervals, or train for longer intervals, and then just crush the shorter ones? Or multiple smaller intervals in repeat? OR is it all same/same?

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

RocketRacing wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:38 am

I guess what I Am saying, is... instead of one 85% lactate threshold ride a week, and say three lower intensity rides, what is the physiological response of that vs the exact same time in 85% lactate threshold, and the exact same time in lower intensity, but mixed? Maybe you do the same four rides, and 1/4th of each ride is lactate threshold, with the remainder of the ride low intensity. it should be a wash for freshness/fitness and intensity by weeks end. I presume it has less gains in lactate threshold less vs one long lactate threshold effort a week.

In effect, that is what I have been doing predominantly. In other words, I frequently challenge my 5-10min max effort goals, because it is a short goal, and not as taxing as say a 1hr ftp. IT still allows my overall ride efforts to remain tempo or endurance regions. I am much stronger now, but in looking at my strava freshness/fitness chart, my most rapid gains in ftp were in the spring when I did almost weekly runs up the alps de zwift at max (paced) sustainable effort. I was basically doing a 100% lactate threshold ride a week, usually followed by 2 days full rest. Then easy rides, then intervals, then back to a 100% day. There was no long easy ride.

Right now I basically just do intervals all week long. I continue to gain, but maybe not quite as rapidly when I did one really hard effort a week.

I guess the core of all this is the following: IF I want to improve my 5-10 minute max efforts (lactate throshold), is it better to train for those short intervals, or train for longer intervals, and then just crush the shorter ones? Or multiple smaller intervals in repeat? OR is it all same/same?

In other words, does the 100m sprinter get fastest by training for 2x50m, or 100m, or 200M and then scaling back to 100m?
I was editing a prior response to give some more color, so I'll just copy/paste again here:

"But in theory, you could find a way to "break up" a 20 minute tempo session into say 10 or so pieces and sprinkle them into your otherwise long ride of say 3 hours and replace that 20 minute tempo session with an easy ride, and basically end up in the same place."

This is essentially similar to what is commonly known as a "fartklek" exercise, and these are highly effective and utilized throughout the world by elite endurance athletes. Bang for buck a single 20 minute tempo session is more effective due to cumulative effect (i.e., no recovery) but not by much.

What you are suggesting (25% of each ride being hard) does not sound fine. So you are suggesting that for each 60 minute block of riding, 15 minutes will be at tempo threshold pace. That is insane and I genuinely doubt that you will actually be capable of doing 15 minutes of threshold pace every day indefinitely.

Regarding 100m sprinters, they are not a good example because they're not really doing intervals in the sense that we understand - they focus all of their training on strength and explosive speed. So lots of weights and very short (30m - 50m - 80m) efforts with full recovery and lots of plyometrics and resistance-based exercises.

A better example from Track & Field would be the 1500m runners who are competing for about 3:40 and often compete in the 3000m which is around 8:00 long. These guys are all on periodized plans, but if I were to summarize, they would at times do a 15-20 minute tempo run, at times a "fartlek" run, and for intervals, usually repeats of 10-20 400m @ Vo2max pace (usually around 55s-60s each with 45-60s rest), or repeats of 3-5x 1000m @ at slightly faster than threshold (usually around 2:15-30 each with2min rest) or some kind of ladder, such as 400m - 800m - 1200m - 1600m - 1200m - 800m - 400m. At peak phase, they do as many as 4 interval sessions in a week and these typically vary every day (variety is good for adaptations). If you haven't figured out yet, these are insane workouts and plans, and are only feasible because they have built a very large aerobic base over several years in a highly specialized multi-phase periodized training program. 99.9% of ordinary runners could not complete any of the above workouts.

One takeaway here is that, for these elite runners who compete in distances that last for 3-8 minutes or so, they are doing intervals with duration ranging from 1 minute to 5 minutes long, and they range in pace from Vo2Max to above threshold. This is highly specific. The elite runners who compete in the half marathon (a bit under 60 minutes) do long intervals of maybe 5x1600m (around 5 minutes) , 2-4x 3200m (or around 9-10 minutes long) and these are done at or slightly above threshold pace. They will rely far less on intervals, and far more on long, slow running and tempo runs. The 5K/10K runners are doing a mix of all of the above. For the marathon (around 2 hours long for an elite), they very infrequently do intervals, and instead rely on many long slow runs and tempo runs at threshold pace.

The other takeway is that as the race distance increases -> interval duration increases, pace decreases, number of repetitions decrease and recovery times between reps increases. Conversely, as the race distance is shorter -> interval duration decreases, pace increases, number of repetitions increase and recovery times decrease. But in all cases, you are utilizing a variety of intervals.
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jlok
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by jlok

https://m.facebook.com/groups/180980610 ... 9982670137
A pre-defined training plan is either suboptimal from day one or suboptimal after the first workout that doesn't go to plan.
This is so true.
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by cazdrvr

I have a question about the 60% of max heart rate. I have consistent measurement of max heart rate being 190 +- 3 bpm. Is it truly 60% of max HR or the Karvonen formula which for me would produce a rate of 138 bpm? 114 seems ridiculously low, but don't dispute the concept of using an appropriately low heart rate for the "easy" workouts. I can also monitor lactate and see consistent measurements with 152-154 bpm producing 2mmol readings and at 138bpm I would see 1.5 mmol, which is a similar reading at 115 bpm.

A secondary issue I run into is a tendency to see elevated HR when rolling out for a road ride and for an equal effort based on power, I may see 20+ bpm higher for a similar RPE. This may be due to adrenaline spiking and a function of nerves and poor aerobic fitness. I have had a full review by a cardiologist this year, so no issues there. When this occurs, my HR at harder efforts are in line with my typical threshold and RPE. I don't have this issue when riding on the trainer indoors.

While I can commit to 7-8 hours per week, would hate to see the "easy" efforts be too easy and not elicit appropriate training stimulus.

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by AJS914

The 60-70% of max HR is just an approximation of aerobic threshold. If you've had your aerobic threshold measured with a lactate test then you can use that figure.

by Weenie


RocketRacing
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by RocketRacing

Iheartb, again, thanks for the thoughtful reply.

The 100m sprinter was a bad example, but you got my jjist. The 1500m and 3000m runners is a great example. And 25% of every ride being threshold would be tough (but there still would be rest and endurance days, it was just an argument of 3 mixed intensity days vs 1 full intensity, and two easy. Take the intensity of one day, and mix it between the other lower intensity days).

The generalizations for intervals vs your target effort length is great also.

My plan is looking a bit like this:
- rest day
- Endurance day. 1-2hr
- 2 days of short Endurance rides with a few threshold Intervals or hillclimb repeats. 1hr rides.
- rest day
- Long endurance day with short intervals/climb repeats. 2hrs
- 2nd endurance day. 1hr
- repeat

That hits the 7 or so hours a week i have to spare. Endurance rides may be combined to one time/weather pending.

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