Training With Zero Metrics

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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robertbb
Posts: 1113
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:27 am
I posted links to I think 3 studies testing the linkage of FTP to lactate threshold, which all came to the same conclusion - it was nowhere close.
Interesting. The whole premise of WKO4/5, the metrics they track (mFTP, TTE, Stamina, FRC etc.) are based on the premise that FTP is a functional equivalent of MLSS. Tim Cusick does a good webinar on the reasoning behind this, and there are articles too. He talks about LT1, LT2, etc. This premise seems to be backed up by Andy Coggan who, you know, kinda invented the whole power thing and developed those new TTE and Stamina metrics.

I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying some of the best sports physioligists alive are disagreeing with you.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

robertbb wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 7:01 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:27 am
I posted links to I think 3 studies testing the linkage of FTP to lactate threshold, which all came to the same conclusion - it was nowhere close.
Interesting. The whole premise of WKO4/5, the metrics they track (mFTP, TTE, Stamina, FRC etc.) are based on the premise that FTP is a functional equivalent of MLSS. Tim Cusick does a good webinar on the reasoning behind this, and there are articles too. He talks about LT1, LT2, etc. This premise seems to be backed up by Andy Coggan who, you know, kinda invented the whole power thing and developed those new TTE and Stamina metrics.

I'm not saying I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying some of the best sports physioligists alive are disagreeing with you.
Just so we're on the same page, you do know what MLSS is right? It's essentially the same thing as FTP, and FTP is more or less a system that allows you to approximate MLSS by doing a time trial alone without the use of "lab equipment."

FTP is closely (but not perfectly) correlated with MLSS. But MLSS itself is an interesting concept and it's really not what most people refer to when we are talking about lactate threshold (i.e., the actual point in which your body begins rapidly accumulating lactic acid, i.e., a threshold of 4.0 mmol/l, or what is commonly referred to as OBLA).

Some people I think play loose with the definition of lactate threshold to include MLSS, when that's really not what we are talking about.
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by Weenie


robertbb
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Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

I agree with you. The people using those loose definitions aren't exactly idiots. They are the pioneers and leaders in training with power on a bicycle. Those people looked at the numbers and decided the differences between LT1, LT2 and OBLA were minimal enough and close enough to MLSS that they rolled it all up and coined the term "FTP" - the F, Functional, being the keyword.

cdorcy
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:16 am

by cdorcy

scapie wrote:
Thu Aug 22, 2019 3:44 am
cdorcy wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:31 pm
Could you comment on what kind of interval sets you find most effective for your hard sessions? Sounds like some tabata style sessions...any other go to sessions? Thanks.
Sure, I’ll post a it a bit briefly and if you’re interested just ask and I can add.

I have a tacx trainer and I preprogram the workouts in their cloud app then load up the sessions when I need them.

Here are 3 workouts;

2 sets of 10x 20sec on 20sec off @3% slope
1 set 10x 30sec on 30sec off @ 2.2% slope
1 set 10x 1min on 1min off @ 2% slope

20, 30 and 60 second would be my bread and butter interval sessions on the trainer. I always start with shorter intervals first and then work towards longer duration. I do this because I feel that to raise your power across different durations you must first raise your top end ceiling, or vo2 I guess you could say.

The efforts are real simple stuff. What is difficult is 1. adjusting the load volume correctly for you level of fitness and overall condition and 2. Going hard enough. So for example when I start out I don’t think I would be fit enough to hit 20 reps of 20sec efforts. Well, I could do them but I couldn’t do them hard enough to be worthwhile. Therefore I would adjust to 2 sets of 6 or 8 and also adjust the rest between sets to 10 or 12 mins. Because that session is very intense but ultimately low overall volume I would add in the tempo session on Wednesday so that way when I start the Thursday session my legs are already overloaded a little. Once I get fitter I just lower the tempo and boost the intensity volume.

There is endless variations of these efforts you can do. Its not so much the duration of the effort you can play with, but the duration of the recovery. I think a 1:1 ratio is good for stuff under 1 min but you can play with how long you rest between sets. The less rest you have the harder its going to be. It’s a bit of a fine line though.
Realized that I never said thanks for this...thanks :beerchug:

I am going to have a go using those sessions....Something like this.

Mon: 2 hours @ 60-70% max HR
Tues: 2 hours @ 60-70% max HR with intervals in the middle
Wed: 2 hours @ 60-70% max HR (eventually work in tempo work based on how I feel)
Thurs: 2 hours @ 60-70% max HR with intervals in the middle
Fri: 2 hours @ 60-70% max HR
Sat: Zwift race/hard ride outside/etc
Sun: Off

This is a lot of intensity so rest weeks every 3 weeks or so based on feel. Does this seem legit? I only race indoors now as my bones dont like crashing in my 30s haha.

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