Neck pain - no matter the position

[scapie]

Your attacking Tobin without actually offering anything of substance to refute his claim. I would be curious to hear why you think a nose-down saddle in the recently trending pronounced drop/forward reach position is bad. What Tobin said (regarding lowering of salle to open the pelvis) is inline with my understanding as well, with the downside that most amateurs can't even the pronounced drop/forward position in the first place to justify needing to tilt the saddle nose.

you have some serioulsy dope bikes, but arn't you 180cm riding a 53cm frame?

i think that my assessment of tobin's posts are quite accurate. they are an example of why you should be cautious taking advice from strangers on the internet - myself included.

“What I do” is now being adopted by fitters and pros...sitting in a more forward position while angling the saddle down...

When I set up my SMPs I just use a clipboard with a level on it and maintain about 8deg of tilt, but it's really almost flat from the middle to the nose.

I am an example of someone who has ridiculous natural flexibility and also a high pain tolerance...

As of yesterday my 20min power is 4.8w/kg ~ 300W, up significantly from just a couple months ago. All I’ve been doing is base miles and trying to keep up with the fastest riders on the no-wait weeknight A-rides.

[TobinHatesYou]

i think that my assessment of tobin's posts are quite accurate. they are an example of why you should be cautious taking advice from strangers on the internet - myself included.

“What I do” is now being adopted by fitters and pros...sitting in a more forward position while angling the saddle down...

When I set up my SMPs I just use a clipboard with a level on it and maintain about 8deg of tilt, but it's really almost flat from the middle to the nose.

I am an example of someone who has ridiculous natural flexibility and also a high pain tolerance...

As of yesterday my 20min power is 4.8w/kg ~ 300W, up significantly from just a couple months ago. All I’ve been doing is base miles and trying to keep up with the fastest riders on the no-wait weeknight A-rides.

I'm not telling Miles253 to adopt my position. I'm encouraging him to straighten out his back to relieve tension on his spine/neck. Using a curved/cradled saddle like an SMP or others (even the Power is slightly curved) encourages pelvic rotation. Tilting it down slightly further encourages that. Miles253 actually has a metric shitload more saddle-to-bar drop than I do, compounding this issue.

That's why I also agree with the suggestion to try a lower saddle position. It can't really hurt to try and he may reach some kind of epiphany. I would love to see his pedaling in motion, particularly when his feet hit BDC. The closest I could find was the following IG post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj8GBs9hYf9/

His left leg is locked out at the bottom of the pedal stroke and foot is severely toe down. He is also sitting fairly forward on his saddle to compensate for the high saddle position. Agree or disagree? Eyeballing the photo, it does look like he has longish femurs too. He may be better off with a much lower saddle position and more setback. That might affect his reach if he keeps arching his back, or he might not need a shorter stem/bar combo at all if he does straighten out his back.

You previously said you thought his position "looked good." After seeing the above photo, do you still think it looks good? To me it looks like his saddle position is possibly a couple centimeters too high.

[bikeboy1tr]

Wow he is really reaching for the pedal at BDC in that IG pic. I would have to agree with Tobin on lowering that seat by a good amount. The back of my knee hurts just looking at that pic. Should make a huge difference in fit postition once the seat comes down to a proper height and it will bring the seat forward somewhat as well.

[TobinHatesYou]

Haha actually now that I look again, he's got his foot on the ground there. My bad.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BkLOZ4Hho64/

This looks better, but that's not BDC or roughly 10deg off BDC where leg extension would be greatest. Still looks like he could try lowering the saddle by a centimeter while increasing setback.

Of course if Miles253 does start rotating the pelvis forward, he will be sitting on the pubic rami instead of the ischial tuberosities, and that would require a lower saddle position anyway. ISM for example recommends a 5mm drop vs more traditional saddles.

[iheartbianchi]

you have some serioulsy dope bikes, but arn't you 180cm riding a 53cm frame?

I do, and it was a gradual move from 57cm bikes to 55cm to 53cm over the course of 15 years or so! I come from a "near" elite athletic background so fortunately I can handle the rather extreme drops and reach (I run 120-130mm stems). I am very concious of my saddle position/angle and do a lot of core/flexibility exercises each week, but I imagine in the next couple of years I'll need to move up to a bigger size and a more relaxed position since I'm getting pretty old now. For whatever it's worth, I used to train with a current WT pro (was on the same team as him before he got ridiculously good) and the fitter that recommended me to do a smaller frame was the same guy that he used to go to. Thanks to my background I have access to Olympic coaches and trainers so I have a good enough sense of where I need to be sitting on my bike (but I do run 1cm of spacers under my stems for comfort!).

My biggest reason for having smaller frames is for a more even weight distribution for control. I found that stems under 120mm were a bit wobbly at high speeds and descents, and obviously on a larger frame I couldn't accomodate a longer stem. I had a couple of crashes when I was on my 57/55 bikes but haven't had a single crash ever since I moved to 53 (fingers crossed!).

[TheKaptone]

i think that my assessment of tobin's posts are quite accurate. they are an example of why you should be cautious taking advice from strangers on the internet - myself included.

“What I do” is now being adopted by fitters and pros...sitting in a more forward position while angling the saddle down...

When I set up my SMPs I just use a clipboard with a level on it and maintain about 8deg of tilt, but it's really almost flat from the middle to the nose.

I am an example of someone who has ridiculous natural flexibility and also a high pain tolerance...

As of yesterday my 20min power is 4.8w/kg ~ 300W, up significantly from just a couple months ago. All I’ve been doing is base miles and trying to keep up with the fastest riders on the no-wait weeknight A-rides.

I'm not telling Miles253 to adopt my position. I'm encouraging him to straighten out his back to relieve tension on his spine/neck. Using a curved/cradled saddle like an SMP or others (even the Power is slightly curved) encourages pelvic rotation. Tilting it down slightly further encourages that. Miles253 actually has a metric shitload more saddle-to-bar drop than I do, compounding this issue.

That's why I also agree with the suggestion to try a lower saddle position. It can't really hurt to try and he may reach some kind of epiphany. I would love to see his pedaling in motion, particularly when his feet hit BDC. The closest I could find was the following IG post:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bj8GBs9hYf9/

His left leg is locked out at the bottom of the pedal stroke and foot is severely toe down. He is also sitting fairly forward on his saddle to compensate for the high saddle position. Agree or disagree? Eyeballing the photo, it does look like he has longish femurs too. He may be better off with a much lower saddle position and more setback. That might affect his reach if he keeps arching his back, or he might not need a shorter stem/bar combo at all if he does straighten out his back.

You previously said you thought his position "looked good." After seeing the above photo, do you still think it looks good? To me it looks like his saddle position is possibly a couple centimeters too high.

Isn't his left leg in the ground in that picture. Have a look closely and see that the pedal is just behind the rear wheel. His foot is touching the ground for the photo seeing as he is not moving

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[TobinHatesYou]

Yes I corrected myself in a reply. His saddle height is within acceptable range, though there’s no harm in trying a little lower. As I also mentioned, there’s is literally no such thing as a hypoextension injury.

[Miles253]

Drops and almost at the bottom stroke.

I did take a video, but can't seem to upload it in the usual way.

How much should I be dropping the saddle by? As surely I'll compromise power output if I do that?

Thanks

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[TheKaptone]

My bad

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[TobinHatesYou]

Based on those photos, I don't think you need to drop the saddle for now. I still encourage you to try rotating your pelvis forward, effectively getting you lower, straighter, increasing your reach and hopefully improving your comfort over time.

[Miles253]

Based on those photos, I don't think you need to drop the saddle for now. I still encourage you to try rotating your pelvis forward, effectively getting you lower, straighter, increasing your reach and hopefully improving your comfort over time.

And the rotation of the pelvis is presumably a combination of action vs limitation?

What are my limitations to pelvic rotation ?

- saddle shape (is the Power not designed to do this or should I be trying something more pronounced?)
- saddle tilt?
- hamstring felxibility?

Anything else I've missed?

Cheers

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[TobinHatesYou]

Miles253, a collection of muscles aptly called hip flexors. There are stretches you can do to improve you flexibility. One involves lying on your back, bringing your knee to your shoulder, then pulling it across the chest. Another stretch is a basic lunge.

[iheartbianchi]

Drops and almost at the bottom stroke.

I did take a video, but can't seem to upload it in the usual way.

How much should I be dropping the saddle by? As surely I'll compromise power output if I do that?

Thanks

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I'm not a fitting expert by any means, but if you're desperate, just some additional suggestions (beyond trying to tip down your saddle nose):

-moving your shift levers to a higher position on your bars which would effectively reduce your reach
-playing around with your saddle fore/aft position; in the instagram photo, you looked a bit bunched which made me think you need to move your saddle aft, but the pictures here you look fine

Your saddle height from these pictures look fine to me, but it seems you're having difficulty coping with the drop, so until you sort that issue out (the core/stregnth/flexibility exercises mentiond in this thread) you could lower your saddle as a temporary fix and give your body a chance to adapt, and once ready then raise it back up.

[Miles253]

Miles253, a collection of muscles aptly called hip flexors. There are stretches you can do to improve you flexibility. One involves lying on your back, bringing your knee to your shoulder, then pulling it across the chest. Another stretch is a basic lunge.

Very aptly named indeed. I'll take a look online and find a visual aid for that one!

I'll put together a routine that should certainly help.

[mattr]

How much should I be dropping the saddle by? As surely I'll compromise power output if I do that?

God no, sustainable power output will be the last thing to go with wrong saddle height. You'll have to go through discomfort=>pain=>injury before you make a noticeable or significant difference to sustainable power by moving your saddle up and down (or backwards and forwards).

You *may* make a small difference to things like peak force and 5/15/30 second power.

All of this is *in my experience*.