An hour at zone 3, is it useful?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

acoggan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:13 am

More misinformation. Hunter has never recommended a ramp (incremental) exercise test. That would be Ric Stern.

Furthermore, I am on record as pointing to it as yet another valid alternative to the "seven deadly sins".
https://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/20 ... s-ftp.html

Sorry, but if this is not a ramp test, what exactly is this? You start at a high pace and then kick it at the end. Are you saying this is not a ramp test because it is not incremental enough, when the instruction is clearly to increase your effort by the end?

"The Threshold Test
Your goal in this test is to average the highest watts possible for a lengthy period of time. (Hint: When you get to the main effort, make sure to pace yourself so that you don’t tire too quickly.)

1. Start out with a 20-minute warm-up, which means just riding along at a moderate pace, at about 65% of your max heart rate (HR), which is what we call your endurance pace. (Be sure to do the same warm-up at the same intensity each time you do the test.)

2. Next do three fast-pedaling efforts at 100 rpm for one minute each, with one minute of easy recovery pedaling between each set, to further prepare your muscles for the effort ahead. After these three sets of fast pedaling, ride easy for five minutes at endurance pace (65% of max HR).

Now the real test begins.

3. Ride 5 minutes all out. Punch it and hold it! Start at a high pace, but not so high that you die at the end. You should have a little energy held in reserve to kick it toward the finish line in the last minute.

The goal of this first part of the effort is twofold: first, to open up the legs for the rest of the test, and second, to measure your ability to produce watts in the VO2max power zone. This initial 5-minute effort also helps to dispense the “freshness” that always exists at the beginning of a ride; your next effort will produce power that is more likely to be truly representative of your FTP.

4. Ride 10 minutes easy at endurance pace.

5. 20-minute time trial. Try to do this on a road that’s fairly flat and allows you to put out a strong, steady effort for the entire 20 minutes. Don’t start out too hard! Get up to speed and then try to hold that speed as steadily you can. If you’ve never done one of these efforts before, I suggest trying it on a steady climb or into a slight headwind, which forces you to put out a maximum effort for the entire 20 minutes."
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

acoggan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:58 am
Sadly, like so many others, you are misinformed, and thus are only compounding the problem by making incorrect statements. FTP (which is strictly my doing, not Hunter's and mine) has *always* been a functional surrogate for the exercise intensity corresponding to a maximal metabolic steady-state. Neither the concept nor the best methods for estimating this intensity have ever changed.
What exactly is your current affiliation with TrainingPeaks? You say misinformation is sad, but there are so many sources everywhere that state that FTP is a proxy for LT (not MLSS or CP), including on TrainingPeaks citing your name.

It is obvious to everyone who bothers to do any homework that FTP is not LT, and is probably closer to MLSS/CP than anything else, yet when the site that you are associated with is out there claiming that FTP = LT (when it clearly isn't), why aren't you trying to change that? Do you think the target audience will just be confused if you start throwing around terms like MLSS so you just look past these misstatements?

And in a world where we have LT, OLA and MLSS, what exactly is the point of FTP? Just a means of estimating MLSS without pricking fingers? Is it a commercial/marketing reason for coining it as FTP?
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:12 am
https://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/20 ... s-ftp.html

Sorry, but if this is not a ramp test, what exactly is this? You start at a high pace and then kick it at the end. Are you saying this is not a ramp test because it is not incremental enough, when the instruction is clearly to increase your effort by the end?

"The Threshold Test
Your goal in this test is to average the highest watts possible for a lengthy period of time. (Hint: When you get to the main effort, make sure to pace yourself so that you don’t tire too quickly.)

1. Start out with a 20-minute warm-up, which means just riding along at a moderate pace, at about 65% of your max heart rate (HR), which is what we call your endurance pace. (Be sure to do the same warm-up at the same intensity each time you do the test.)

2. Next do three fast-pedaling efforts at 100 rpm for one minute each, with one minute of easy recovery pedaling between each set, to further prepare your muscles for the effort ahead. After these three sets of fast pedaling, ride easy for five minutes at endurance pace (65% of max HR).

Now the real test begins.

3. Ride 5 minutes all out. Punch it and hold it! Start at a high pace, but not so high that you die at the end. You should have a little energy held in reserve to kick it toward the finish line in the last minute.

The goal of this first part of the effort is twofold: first, to open up the legs for the rest of the test, and second, to measure your ability to produce watts in the VO2max power zone. This initial 5-minute effort also helps to dispense the “freshness” that always exists at the beginning of a ride; your next effort will produce power that is more likely to be truly representative of your FTP.

4. Ride 10 minutes easy at endurance pace.

5. 20-minute time trial. Try to do this on a road that’s fairly flat and allows you to put out a strong, steady effort for the entire 20 minutes. Don’t start out too hard! Get up to speed and then try to hold that speed as steadily you can. If you’ve never done one of these efforts before, I suggest trying it on a steady climb or into a slight headwind, which forces you to put out a maximum effort for the entire 20 minutes."
You don't know what a ramp test is? :hmm: :hmm:

Nefarious86
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by Nefarious86

https://blog.trainerroad.com/new-ramp-t ... stressful/

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LM7805
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by LM7805

The reason why he suggest going out a little easier at the beginning is because if you base the whole effort on RPE, you will most likely go too hard at the start and fade at the end. Hence to get a more steady effort that is more representative of your true maximal effort, you need to go a little "easier" at the beginning and "harder" at the end. This is not a ramp test.

A ramp test has target power that increase at set intervals, like a staircase. It is what is used in TrainerRoad as the default test

acoggan
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:28 pm

by acoggan

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:12 am
acoggan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 1:13 am

More misinformation. Hunter has never recommended a ramp (incremental) exercise test. That would be Ric Stern.

Furthermore, I am on record as pointing to it as yet another valid alternative to the "seven deadly sins".
https://www.hunterallenpowerblog.com/20 ... s-ftp.html

Sorry, but if this is not a ramp test, what exactly is this? You start at a high pace and then kick it at the end. Are you saying this is not a ramp test because it is not incremental enough, when the instruction is clearly to increase your effort by the end?

"The Threshold Test
Your goal in this test is to average the highest watts possible for a lengthy period of time. (Hint: When you get to the main effort, make sure to pace yourself so that you don’t tire too quickly.)

1. Start out with a 20-minute warm-up, which means just riding along at a moderate pace, at about 65% of your max heart rate (HR), which is what we call your endurance pace. (Be sure to do the same warm-up at the same intensity each time you do the test.)

2. Next do three fast-pedaling efforts at 100 rpm for one minute each, with one minute of easy recovery pedaling between each set, to further prepare your muscles for the effort ahead. After these three sets of fast pedaling, ride easy for five minutes at endurance pace (65% of max HR).

Now the real test begins.

3. Ride 5 minutes all out. Punch it and hold it! Start at a high pace, but not so high that you die at the end. You should have a little energy held in reserve to kick it toward the finish line in the last minute.

The goal of this first part of the effort is twofold: first, to open up the legs for the rest of the test, and second, to measure your ability to produce watts in the VO2max power zone. This initial 5-minute effort also helps to dispense the “freshness” that always exists at the beginning of a ride; your next effort will produce power that is more likely to be truly representative of your FTP.

4. Ride 10 minutes easy at endurance pace.

5. 20-minute time trial. Try to do this on a road that’s fairly flat and allows you to put out a strong, steady effort for the entire 20 minutes. Don’t start out too hard! Get up to speed and then try to hold that speed as steadily you can. If you’ve never done one of these efforts before, I suggest trying it on a steady climb or into a slight headwind, which forces you to put out a maximum effort for the entire 20 minutes."
No, that is not a ramp/incremental/step test - not even close.

(For someone who apparently conducts/sells lactate testing, I find your misunderstanding shocking.)

acoggan
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:28 pm

by acoggan

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:43 am
acoggan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:58 am
Sadly, like so many others, you are misinformed, and thus are only compounding the problem by making incorrect statements. FTP (which is strictly my doing, not Hunter's and mine) has *always* been a functional surrogate for the exercise intensity corresponding to a maximal metabolic steady-state. Neither the concept nor the best methods for estimating this intensity have ever changed.
What exactly is your current affiliation with TrainingPeaks? You say misinformation is sad, but there are so many sources everywhere that state that FTP is a proxy for LT (not MLSS or CP), including on TrainingPeaks citing your name.

It is obvious to everyone who bothers to do any homework that FTP is not LT, and is probably closer to MLSS/CP than anything else, yet when the site that you are associated with is out there claiming that FTP = LT (when it clearly isn't), why aren't you trying to change that? Do you think the target audience will just be confused if you start throwing around terms like MLSS so you just look past these misstatements?

And in a world where we have LT, OLA and MLSS, what exactly is the point of FTP? Just a means of estimating MLSS without pricking fingers? Is it a commercial/marketing reason for coining it as FTP?
My only association with Training Peaks was that they used to pay me a licensing fee to use some of my ideas. That ended once WKO4 was completed and sold to Training Peaks (WKO4 was developed by first Hunter's Peaks Coaching Group, then by Velocious Software once Hunter stepped away).

As I indicated before, FTP has *always* been a surrogate for maximal metabolic steady-state (MLSS, etc.). Again, that's why CP testing is listed among my "seven deadly sins". (I suggest that you go read the chapter on power-based training that I wrote for the USA Cycling level 2 coaching manual in the early 2000s if you are still confused on this point.)

FTP exists because the best predictor of performance is performance itself, and it provides a way cutting through all the "noise" out there put forth by people who don't really understand exercise physiology, by speaking to athletes and coaches in a way that they intuitively understand.

I first started using this approach with local cyclists after borrowing an SRM in 1997, then more widely after becoming a beta tester for PowerTap in 2000. However, I didn't settle on calling it FTP until 2002 or so. Before that, I referred to it variously as "TT power", "threshold power", or sometimes "lactate threshold power". The reason for the latter is that at the time/among the people under whom I trained (Costill, Coyle, Holloszy...Ivy and Wilmore were on my dissertation committee), exercise physiologists frequently used "lactate threshold" conceptually as much as quantitatively, i.e., the term was used to refer to the non-linear relationship between exercise intensity and physiological responses in general, regardless of specifics of how testing was performed and/or what quantitative criteria were applied.

Here endeth the history lesson...

acoggan
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 8:28 pm

by acoggan

iheartbianchi wrote:
Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pm
FTP never enters the discussion. It is not a serious tool for serious cyclists.
Try telling that to, oh, I don't know, say Amber Neben...

iheartbianchi
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

Shocking that you are now equating ramp test with the TR formulation of shallow step incremental ramp tests.

What is the purpose of a ramp test? Depending on the protocal, typically to test MAP/vo2max. What does Hunter Allen say on the link I posted?

“and second, to measure your ability to produce watts in the VO2max power zone.”

Huh, vo2max testing. Check. Increasing effort. Check.

Call it what you want, its a 5 minute ramp test with a single large step at the last minute.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

LM7805 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:20 am
The reason why he suggest going out a little easier at the beginning is because if you base the whole effort on RPE, you will most likely go too hard at the start and fade at the end. Hence to get a more steady effort that is more representative of your true maximal effort, you need to go a little "easier" at the beginning and "harder" at the end. This is not a ramp test.

A ramp test has target power that increase at set intervals, like a staircase. It is what is used in TrainerRoad as the default test
The TR ramp test protocol (along with the other similar variants) are all fine. But there are numerous other protocols with differing degrees of steps and time increments. I am reading Allen’s stated purpose of this 5 minute test (measuring vo2max effort), the sharp increase in power at the end and I see a ramp test.
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acoggan
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by acoggan

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:00 am
First we have to assess whether or not 4.0 mmol/l really is your lactate threshold.
Just bookmarking this in case you wish to be pedantic again about use of the term "lactate threshold."

acoggan
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by acoggan

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:37 pm
I am reading Allen’s stated purpose of this 5 minute test (measuring vo2max effort), the sharp increase in power at the end and I see a ramp test.
I think that you need glasses. 😉

iheartbianchi
Posts: 306
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by iheartbianchi

acoggan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:40 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:00 am
First we have to assess whether or not 4.0 mmol/l really is your lactate threshold.
Just bookmarking this in case you wish to be pedantic again about use of the term "lactate threshold."
May as well bookmark the following as well:

“Your LT (or FTP) provides a solid basis for any power meter-based training program” - see link from Allen posted above.
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acoggan
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by acoggan

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:45 pm
acoggan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:40 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:00 am
First we have to assess whether or not 4.0 mmol/l really is your lactate threshold.
Just bookmarking this in case you wish to be pedantic again about use of the term "lactate threshold."
May as well bookmark the following as well:

“Your LT (or FTP) provides a solid basis for any power meter-based training program” - see link from Allen posted above.
Yes, as I said, the term lactate threshold (or LT) has long been used both conceptually (generically) and to refer to the results of a specific test protocol/way of analyzing the data.

That's one reason why FTP is such a useful term/concept, i.e., rather than get mired in all the confusion, why not just describe the reality, i.e., functionality speaking, there is a power at or below which you can go a very long time but above which the gorilla jumps on your back much more quickly.

(Others like to call it critical power, but that sucks you down the whole math/modeling rabbit hole the same way that lactate threshold sucks you down the whole blood measurement/sampling rabbit hole.)

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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

acoggan wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 12:54 pm

Yes, as I said, the term lactate threshold (or LT) has long been used both conceptually (generically) and to refer to the results of a specific test protocol/way of analyzing the data.

That's one reason why FTP is such a useful term/concept, i.e., rather than get mired in all the confusion, why not just describe the reality, i.e., functionality speaking, there is a power at or below which you can go a very long time but above which the gorilla jumps on your back much more quickly.

(Others like to call it critical power, but that sucks you down the whole math/modeling rabbit hole the same way that lactate threshold sucks you down the whole blood measurement/sampling rabbit hole.)
Just so we're on the same page then, FTP is not intended to be correlated to a lactate inflection point of around 4.0 mmol/l or OBLA, but may be a surrogate to MLSS. I get your point on the pendantics of arguing over whether or not MLSS, and by relation FTP, are or are not correlated to what is commonly referred to as "lactate threshold." I think part of the disagreement stems from the simple fact that at least in my mind, I consider MLSS conceptually different from what is classicaly understood as lactate threshold (i.e., a lactate inflection point), and thus FTP should not be discussed in the same context as "lactate threshold," but I take your point that LT can be interprted differently.

The whole point of the initial discussion (accuracy or superiority of power-based training) was based on the above notion that "LT" refers to a lactate-inflection point, and thus FTP cannot possibly be a surrogate for "lactate threshold," and by connection, we cannot conclude the accuracy or superiority of FTP-based power zones over zones designed around % of Vo2Max/HRMax or 4.0 mmol/l of lactate (there was a sidebar on cardiac lag, but the time frames in which cardiac lag really matters is so short to negate the efficiacy of % or power values anyway). Compounding the disagreement is the simple fact that there are various protocols for testing for FTP (and I just opened the door for more "strawmen" claims i.e., that there is nobody out there claiming that FTP-based zones are superior to other forms of training :roll:).

For whatever it's worth I think MLSS is a neat concept. It seeks a "functional" application of lactate values for endurance athletes. But I think there needs to be further testing on training based on MLSS/FTP as I'm sure you're aware, most of the research conducted on training regimes has been conducted using HR, Vo2max and blood lactate measures as the control variables.
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