An hour at zone 3, is it useful?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

Tinea Pedis wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 4:57 am
Don't overthink it.

Start slower than you might think. Build it gradually.
That pretty much sums up all you need to know to start running
The only thing I would add it to try to keep your cadence up
Other than that, just get out and run

by Weenie


iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Tinea Pedis wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 10:57 pm
While I appreciate your views - and you are totally welcome to them - you (ideally) need to disclamier that these are your views, not those of the science around this, before replying in a post like previously. As it was presented like it was from the point of view of where the science falls on this. Which, with all respect, it is not. The science is as mentioned
Is it established science? I am sure you are aware of studies that suggest midfoot strike when running is our biologically evolved norm (as opposed to the heel strike that is natural for humans when walking):

https://journals.biologists.com/jeb/art ... ike-in-the

And studies such as the below which indicate (as referenced in my prior post) that heavy thick shoes unintentionally result in a heel drop, making you a heel striker if you are otherwise a midfoot striker:

https://www.kansashealthsystem.com/news ... kinematics

I am not sure how much practicing podiatrists consider foot strike patterns on a holistic, totality of the circumstances basis. Running mechanics depend on so many factors beyond staring at the foot and gait in a vacuum.

Not trying to be argumentative, just interested in this topic.
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jasjas
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by jasjas

My daughter is a natural runner, mid foot runs like she is on air.... i am not, heel strike, hear me coming from a mile away..... i tried running midfoot with a low heel drop shoe... all that happened was i got injured (i took it very slowly too)

Back to my cushioned heel drop shoes and all is good.

We are all different, my daughter would have out run the Sabre tooth tiger, i'd have been eaten.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

jasjas wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:50 am
My daughter is a natural runner, mid foot runs like she is on air.... i am not, heel strike, hear me coming from a mile away..... i tried running midfoot with a low heel drop shoe... all that happened was i got injured (i took it very slowly too)

Back to my cushioned heel drop shoes and all is good.

We are all different, my daughter would have out run the Sabre tooth tiger, i'd have been eaten.
The intellectual "itch" that I develop when I read things like this are...why are you heel striking? Is this just the way you were born, or is this an adaptation to something else? And then, does this adapation itself increase the risk of knee/hip injuries? Just food for thought. Sorry I know this is off topic, but foot strike is something that has interested me for a long time when I was running.
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jasjas
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by jasjas

iheartbianchi wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 2:47 pm
The intellectual "itch" that I develop when I read things like this are...why are you heel striking? Is this just the way you were born, or is this an adaptation to something else? And then, does this adapation itself increase the risk of knee/hip injuries? Just food for thought. Sorry I know this is off topic, but foot strike is something that has interested me for a long time when I was running.
Because i can't run! Believe me i have tried, i got calf injuries within a few weeks of trying midfoot.

When i was at school, i was the kid that walked the last 600m of the 800m relay... i hated it but i rode my bike everywhere, even as a 14 yo i could easily knock out 100 mile rides but run for the school bus? nope.

It took me 4 goes to get under 2 hours for the 1/2 marathon, my fat friend who can't ride a bike for toffee & didn't train much, did 1:45 at his first go...sickener.

Imho Mid foot is for people with some talent, for the rest of us.. do whatever.

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

jasjas wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:17 pm

Imho Mid foot is for people with some talent, for the rest of us.. do whatever.
Not quite...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k29fPwF ... chaelGrech

also has a pancake flat foot too. But that's a whole other topic to debunk. And not for this thread.


iheartbianchi, as mentioned you are welcome to believe what you like. The reasons midfoot came about are not hocus pocus, some in running research truly believed they had found something. And there are certainly those who still believe. No different to those who still feel there is an optimal (as opposed to self selected) cadence for cycling.

I'm just giving you the take of someone whose profession it is. That I've spent two decades in and continue to speak to folks (not Google) who know a whole lot more about it than me. Take that how you will.
Is it established science?
Not trying to be argumentative
Mmmm....

jasjas
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by jasjas

Tinea Pedis wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:24 am
jasjas wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:17 pm

Imho Mid foot is for people with some talent, for the rest of us.. do whatever.
Not quite...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k29fPwF ... chaelGrech

also has a pancake flat foot too. But that's a whole other topic to debunk. And not for this thread.
There is hope for me??? :shock:

c60rider
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by c60rider

maxim809 wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:48 am
As an absolute beginner to running and never having studied it deeply, this segue is leaving me hilariously lost and baffled. I'm just watching this debate play out and I have no idea which side to stand on, what to believe, or what is actually science.

All I know is that I sometimes go on runs, albeit poorly, and I do not think much about the activity or take it seriously like I do other hobbies.

Gives me a nice mirror to see what I (we) cyclists must look like when we debate Z3 vs Z2:Z4 from the perspective of novice or casual cyclists. Damn.
As you will probably be aware if you search out what you believe in then it will confirm that you are correct. Meaning that there is polarizing and contradictory evidence everywhere about most subjects. There are some things to consider when trying to run. There's so much tech and acronyms built into trainers. If they were that good nobody would get injured so most of it is marketing nonsense. So what's the best trainer? A comfortable one! Some people like soft, squidgy, springy ones, others like rock hard ones. There's evidence to show that there's an increase of injury risk running at less than 90 steps per minute as opposed to over 90 (counting on one leg, runners tend to count both legs per minute whereas us cyclists tend to count the legs individually). So per step the slower the leg speed the more shock and load going through each step so the increase risk of injury you build. Elite runners you'll barely hear them until they're right by you. They're fast with the legs ie over 90, even 100 so lighter on landing the foot on the ground per step. When the fun runners start coming through they're like a herd of elephants thumping their feet down running at under 80 steps. So comfortable trainers and get the legs moving fast. Give the body 3-4 months of a progressive and steady build up to let the body adapt musculoskeletally if you're not a regular runner already practising to get the leg speed up while keeping the intensity low.

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by maxim809

Yes, indeed. To both points regarding find what you seek (confirmation bias) & polarizing evidence supporting opposite sides (complex problems will always have a paradox).

My original point that I may not have made clear, is that I realize I am willing to dive into deep rabbit holes for topics I am interested in (cycling). However, I won't for topics I'm not interested in (running).

And in the end, it is clear that the simple answers are best.

So for running, I keep it simple. I don't overthink it, and I just do what is comfortable. But I also don't apply myself in that sport. My motivation is limited by my lack of curiosity in the sport, even though I might have the athletic ability to actually be much better at it if I tried.

On the other hand, I have found that wading through the complexities will eventually allow one to resurface with the simple answers. Of course, one can skip the complexities and simply "trust" the simple answers at face value and carry on with their lives. This may not be acceptable for those who are inquisitive or need deep meaning and reasoning for "why" they do the things they do. I think a lot of us are crazy about cycling, so we fall into the camp of needing deep reasoning. Even if a lot of this reasoning cannot be proved out beyond doubt as there will always exist contradictory evidence (your 2nd point).

As comical as it is, one advantage of going deep is it gives one justification behind their actions -- even if that justification is simply an illusion. There is perhaps more joy and way less stress by going with the "stick with the simple answer" approach. But there wouldn't be much to stand on if pressed on why you do the things the way you do.

Is any of this making sense?

I guess bringing it back to practical terms, my "simple" takeaways from reading this entire thread are:

1. Easy rides still give aerobic gains
2. Easy rides allow you to recover faster
3. Faster recovery means more opportunity for volume
4. Consistency is key

Maybe a runner-up number 5 is "Prick your ear, yo"

Of course there are plenty more simple takeaways to cycling, but the biggest theme from this thread is really, "Have you considered you might be Sweet Spot'ing too hard, bro?"
Last edited by maxim809 on Thu Apr 29, 2021 5:20 am, edited 4 times in total.

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otoman
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by otoman

Excellent TL;DR Maxim809!
Age and treachery shall overcome youth and skill

Toybota
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by Toybota

I cannot thank this thread enough. I was so overtrained from all the SS workout that I was doing from Trainer Road that I really wanted to quit cycling.

Eversince I switched to Polarizing training, I was able to bring my volume up to 15hrs per week and still felt a lot better. Oh and hitting my PB power is a bonus :).

I mainly thank iheartbianchi for all his contribution to this thread.

DirtiousDirte
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by DirtiousDirte

It is almost a shame this thread seems to have run its course!

The timing of it could not have been more perfect for me. I burnt out on TrainerRoad sweet spot plans, then was doing my own thing (intervals 2 to 3 times a week), and was hitting the same ceiling I hit every year. I initially thought the 6 or so hours of training time available to me wouldn't be enough for polarized to be effective. However, with this thread, Seiler's youtube channel, and Dylan Johnson's youtube channel I decided to give it a shot.

Overall I'm feeling fresher for the hard days which has allowed me to push harder during the efforts and I've seen a few of my PBs fall this season. I also find my overall energy levels are a lot higher which is good as I have 2 young boys that need my attention with a 3rd on the way! In other words: going easier more often has made it easier to go harder on the bike but also contributed to some better balance to my time off the bike as well.

Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion and a big thanks to iheartbianchi for his diligence.

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by fruitfly

I too thank iheartbianchi for this thread-adopting these ideas as an older cyclist has made a world of difference to my cycling. Power keeps going up, PRs keep falling, and the tone with my club has changed from polite pity to "what's your secret?". I am even picking up the odd Strava trophy at 66 years.
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Brokenladder
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by Brokenladder

Let me pile on again with thanks to all on this thread. Moroever, I owe a special thanks to whomever first mentioned Kipchoge. Despite [non-serious] running alongside my cycling for most of my life, I never really followed track and field. Fast forward to today: I am now mildly obsessesed with Kipchoge and his peers after being introduced to them in the context of this thread. I started doing the Kipchoge prescribed core workout(whether or not he really does the six-exercises....). Guess what? Running feels notably better! Go figure... :-)

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