An hour at zone 3, is it useful?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:39 am

.....No buddy, it's not close enough. You proved that with your screenshots - you spent little to no time at Vo2Max intensities (and you did not produce maximal aerobic power - slightly different concept since this is a measure of output at peak O2 consumption, and not merely O2 consumption, explained further below) during your segments....

No, please, do go on.
Vo2Max = aerobic capacity, or more technically, maximal oxygen consumption. But just like MaxHR, it is merely a snapshot of a physioliogical measure, which is meaningless in training unless we tie it to a measure of output. That's why we speak in terms of intensity, or work. That's why I referred to maximal aerobic power in that context, which is your peak oxygen consumption during a specific period of exercise (and not just a snapshot that is Vo2Max). You exertion level during your 5 minute segment was not at peak oxygen consumption for aerobic metabolism, and as a result the intensity of your output (i.e., power) was also lower. To simplify, we say, your 5 minute segment was not at maximal aerobic power, or to further simply, you were not at Vo2Max intensities. To be clear, when we say "intensity" we don't mean how you feel, the expression on your face, your attitude or mindset...we are talking about output ("distribution of intensites...").

A prime example of a word salad. Vo2max is very well defined. Maximal aerobic power is well defined. Please don't confuse people with your lack of understanding. This is just painful reading now.
You're probably confusing Vo2Max (as a snapshot of cardiac output and arteriovenous oxygen) with the output at Vo2Max for a given duration of exercise. Your snapshot of Vo2Max, e.g., 70ml/kg/min, is irrelevant during any period of exercise. In training, nobody cares about the amount of oxygen your body consumed during 5 minutes, or your maximal oxygen consumption - we care about what this means in terms of the power or work your body was able to produce aerobically. Based on my napkin math, you were at around 85% of Vo2Max intensity for most of that segment - this is not the appropriate intensity level for Vo2Max work, but squarely an LT effort. Not to mention the initial anaerobic portion which did nothing but hurt you.

Oh this is golden, "napkin math" holy shit. What a joke. This is pure comedy now.

Don't get so defensive - it's not condescension to point out you are looking at your data wrong, and coming to incorrect conclusions. If anyone has been condescening, rude, look around you at your friends who have done nothing but post insults for 5 pages running. Just be mature and consider that you've been looking at it the wrong way, change your approach if needed and carry on. Stubbornly trying to justify your approach only hurts you. I have nothing to gain or lose from you continuing to do lactate threshold riding thinking you're doing Vo2Max training. I'm just here trying to help you.
This is A class trolling now folks. Move along. Like I said, anyone who actually can make sense of this garbage will have an idea of what I meant when I said you get what you pay for.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

AeroObsessive wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:33 am

A prime example of a word salad. Vo2max is very well defined. Maximal aerobic power is well defined. Please don't confuse people with your lack of understanding. This is just painful reading now.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17218891/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3471053/

I don't think it's the reading that is painful for you...
AeroObsessive wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:33 am

Oh this is golden, "napkin math" holy shit. What a joke. This is pure comedy now.
Math is funny to you? How interesting.

Oh goodness - someone just DM'd me telling me you're an amateur cycling coach. That explains everything, that huge chip on your shoulder and why you've been following me around for the last 3 years. Don't worry I'm not going to kill off the demand for private amateur coaching services.

That online coaching site you shilled earlier - is that you? Could you be any more shamless.
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:45 am

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17218891/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3471053/

I don't think it's the reading that is painful for you...


Oh, we are at the "posting studies" stage now?

Ok, this will take a little time, standby....


Math is funny to you? How interesting.

No, your attempt at maths with incomplete data is.
Oh goodness - someone just DM'd me telling me you're an amateur cycling coach. That explains everything, that huge chip on your shoulder and why you've been following me around for the last 3 years. Don't worry I'm not going to kill off the demand for private amateur coaching services.

I was, past tense, and if I still were I would not worried at all. In fact you may be best advert for reputable coaches on this site in ages.

As for "following me around"... WTAF?
That online coaching site you shilled earlier - is that you?
Haha, no, thats just a great source of *reliable* information. Kolie is often on Reddit and Insta with AMAs, a good read.

I am on Twitter if anyone is bothered to track me down.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

I assumed you were just a regular cyclist, which is why I spent so much time engaging with you, despite your attitude - open door policy and all that. Someone who claims to know you told me you were a coach. Go figure, I always have been a bit too trusting of people. A bit of a disclaimer would have been nice!
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jekyll man
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by jekyll man

AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:31 pm


FWIW, I am the poster formally known as Tapeworm :thumbup:
welcome back tapeworm :welcome:

For what its worth, IHB has been asked previously (maybe in another thread where he claimed to be the oracle of all things training related) of his coaching credentials, but none were forthcoming, so for him to call you out is a bit of a joke.
I'll stick to reading and taking onboard what you and Nick say, the carcrash viewing is for :popcorn:
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jasjas
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by jasjas

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:57 am
I assumed you were just a regular cyclist, which is why I spent so much time engaging with you, despite your attitude - open door policy and all that. Someone who claims to know you told me you were a coach. Go figure, I always have been a bit too trusting of people. A bit of a disclaimer would have been nice!
Quite happy to read what you write on coaching.

But if you say you were winning major races 20years ago and send (coach i presume?) riders who podium and win at olympic and WT level then some form of "proof" needs to be provided.

Otherwise expect some scepticism as you didn't need to state any of the above.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

jasjas wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:43 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:57 am
I assumed you were just a regular cyclist, which is why I spent so much time engaging with you, despite your attitude - open door policy and all that. Someone who claims to know you told me you were a coach. Go figure, I always have been a bit too trusting of people. A bit of a disclaimer would have been nice!
Quite happy to read what you write on coaching.

But if you say you were winning major races 20years ago and send (coach i presume?) riders who podium and win at olympic and WT level then some form of "proof" needs to be provided.

Otherwise expect some scepticism as you didn't need to state any of the above.
I have written plenty on training here.

Skepticism is one thing. What Coach AeroObsessive et al have been doing is not criticism. They have offered no substantive rebuttal, no ideas, no alternatives, just one-liners. That's not productive. We have a clear case of a guy who is training incorrectly on its face, misunderstanding his own data to lead to wrong conclusions. Having stared at thousands of charts in my time this was apparent to me immediately. Yet, nobody wants to lift a finger to help the man. Rather, they'd spent their time repeating the same insults. Forget about me for a second - help that man. He is hurting himself.

Sorry, I don't post my personal information on the internet. Never have, never will, and especially not to people who have done nothing but throw insults. Are you kidding? If you don't like it that's fine, I'm not trying to sell you anything. Even when I coached, obviously my athletes never paid me a dime, that's just not my M/O. Don't expect people to change their comfort levels on the internet just because you want them to. If you have a rebuttal to a statement I made, I'm here to answer questions or offer clarifications.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

jekyll man wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:39 am
AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:31 pm


FWIW, I am the poster formally known as Tapeworm :thumbup:
welcome back tapeworm :welcome:

For what its worth, IHB has been asked previously (maybe in another thread where he claimed to be the oracle of all things training related) of his coaching credentials, but none were forthcoming, so for him to call you out is a bit of a joke.
I'll stick to reading and taking onboard what you and Nick say, the carcrash viewing is for :popcorn:
I never claimed to be an oracle. I don't even consider myself to have "coached" to be honest. I viewed myself as a teacher and mentor above all else. I came from a running background. Given the name of the game at that time was "training by the fundamentals," I was asked if I would be interested in working with juniors to revamp the cycling program - the seniors were already too entrenched in their methods and coaching. Not to mention, I would have been utterly unqualified to coach the elite seniors, and utterly unqualified to coach WT level pros. My work was always on a fundamental level with juniors. It's a completely different paradigm, so no, I completely recognize the limitations of my knowledge and expertise, and I stay in my lane.

Just so you know, Coach AeroObsessive started following me around in the early days of this thread (I don't really post much elsewhere) and some other training thread, when I was criticizing the amateur coaching community and in particular the misguided use of FTP leading to overtraining. It seems like he was a poster before, I think I remember he said he lost his account and was mostly lurking, but he created the AeroObsesive account specifically to respond to my posts in training threads, and has been following me around ever since. I just found out he is a part of the amateur coaching community. Now it makes sense.

Not saying it's right or wrong - just an observation that explains why he spends most of his time on WW talking to me, and why, no matter how hard I try, he responds with nothing but insecurity and aggression. I'm fairly patient, but it was a bit weird.
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:56 am

I have written plenty on training here.

Skepticism is one thing. What Coach AeroObsessive et al have been doing is not criticism. They have offered no substantive rebuttal, no ideas, no alternatives, just one-liners. That's not productive. We have a clear case of a guy who is training incorrectly on its face, misunderstanding his own data to lead to wrong conclusions. Having stared at thousands of charts in my time this was apparent to me immediately. Yet, nobody wants to lift a finger to help the man. Rather, they'd spent their time repeating the same insults. Forget about me for a second - help that man. He is hurting himself.

Sorry, I don't post my personal information on the internet. Never have, never will. If you don't like it that's fine, I'm not trying to sell you anything. If you have a rebuttal to a statement I made, I'm here to answer questions or offer clarifications.
Have to call out misinformation when I see it. Training methodology, eh, ask a hundred different coaches how to train X, you'll get a hundred different answers - but there'll be more similarities than differences

So to the key point.
I had a look at the data posted...I'd say on the face of it the training is just fine as it is.
The effort last a bit over 6mins by the looks. Starts at over 500watts and decays to approx 400ish. HR ramps then plateaus at just below 180. RPE 19 (I assume on the Borg scale). Looking at the other information on the chart, I would be very comfortable saying that for *training* purposes, vo2max has been worked here, definitely the max part of vo2max. Golden Cheatah also shows the W' tanking completely, a good *indication* that it's been a hard effort.

How anyone can say this is an LT style block is deluded.

If working vo2max is the goal, based on the data at hand and the RPE, job done in this particular case (though I'd like to know the cadence to be sure).

Does it/would it work for everyone? The definitive answer for all things training: IT DEPENDS.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

AeroObsessive wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:25 pm
So to the key point.
I had a look at the data posted...I'd say on the face of it the training is just fine as it is.
The effort last a bit over 6mins by the looks. Starts at over 500watts and decays to approx 400ish. HR ramps then plateaus at just below 180. RPE 19 (I assume on the Borg scale). Looking at the other information on the chart, I would be very comfortable saying that for *training* purposes, vo2max has been worked here, definitely the max part of vo2max. Golden Cheatah also shows the W' tanking completely, a good *indication* that it's been a hard effort.

How anyone can say this is an LT style block is deluded.

If working vo2max is the goal, based on the data at hand and the RPE, job done in this particular case (though I'd like to know the cadence to be sure).
Personal insults aside, I am truly fascinated (not meant sarcastically) that you have this interpretation of that data. I can write more on this later (if people want), but I interpret that significant Wattage drop, combined with very high HR and RPE, over a period of 5 or so minutes, as a classic indication of anaerobic overpacing quickly followed by decceleration into LT intensity levels.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

You keep claiming to be the victim of personal insults when nobody is being particularly insulting. My “FFS” was an interjection showing my fatigue at your repeated shitpost vomitus. It is what it is. About as far as I’ve gone is to tell others to ignore you. AeroObsessive doesn’t even call you delusional outright, not that it would be a personal insult either way.

You, on the other hand, are trying to get under his skin by calling him “Coach AeroObsessive” repeatedly.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 12:33 pm

Personal insults aside, I am truly fascinated (not meant sarcastically) that you have this interpretation of that data. I can write more on this later (if people want), but I interpret that significant Wattage drop, combined with very high HR and RPE, over a period of 5 or so minutes, as a classic indication of anaerobic overpacing quickly followed by decceleration into LT intensity levels.
Yes, I concur with that analysis.

Just trying to find the last few elusive studies and I will write up "Why is it so" in relation to how this work in and around vo2max.

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Tinea Pedis
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by Tinea Pedis

jekyll man wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:39 am
I'll stick to reading and taking onboard what you and Nick say
:beerchug:

When the facts change, I change my mind. Have altered training over the years and always look to impart that to those I help. Or to bounce off others and gauge their thoughts. Always nice if it helps others - on places like here - along too.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mon Sep 06, 2021 10:32 pm
You keep claiming to be the victim of personal insults when nobody is being particularly insulting. My “FFS” was an interjection showing my fatigue at your repeated shitpost vomitus. It is what it is. About as far as I’ve gone is to tell others to ignore you. AeroObsessive doesn’t even call you delusional outright, not that it would be a personal insult either way.

You, on the other hand, are trying to get under his skin by calling him “Coach AeroObsessive” repeatedly.
How dishonest of you. And the coach reference is in relation to how Doctors have different diagnoses and thus people get second opinions. Different perspective is needed when dealing with a coach vs an athlete - just highlighting this.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Tue Sep 07, 2021 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

All the back and forth is there for others to read...unless you delete your posts eventually.

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