An hour at zone 3, is it useful?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Andrew69
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by Andrew69

AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:37 am
That could have been shortened too: I am going to waffle about a bunch of stuff I don't really know much about and make up some cool stories about stuff that never happened.
Cool story bro
Plan on acutually making a contribution to this thread or are you here to just heap crap onto IHB?

I can guarantee there are plenty of members that are thankful that IHB takes the time to post and members that are finally making progress in their training with out constantly fighting burnout and injury due to advice from "coaches" who advocate that the only way to improve is to constantly suffer on the bike.

Been there, done that, and still didnt get "fast" (how ever you want to define that).

It always fustrates me that people will say, "oh. there is more than one way to skin a cat", and then turn around and attack other people if they dont subscribe to their training methodology

Dont like what IHB has to say? Fine. No problem with that.
Then either present your own methodology along with studies to back up your opinion (just like IHB has) or STFU
We're here to debate, learn and share experiences, not to shut down discussion because it isnt in line with your current thinking.

I often wonder how many people get "fast" despite what they are doing, not because of what they are doing

F**k me, as if there isnt enough shit to deal with in the world at the moment.

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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Looks like full on panic stations for the guy who said he blocked me after I pointed out that Coggan himself is disavowing the 7 Zone system he has based his entire training around. Funny isn't it.

Since you guys probably have some kind of Zwift racer chat room thing going, can you appoint a representative to gather your collective views and post on your behalf? It's cute you all respond within hours of each other saying the exact same thing.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

kaptanpedal wrote:
Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:56 pm
Coggan Zone Premise 1: FTP = Lactate Theshold
Coggan Zone Premise 2: 120% FTP = 100% Vo2Max

150% FTP = ?% Vo2Max?
1 pedal stroke at 120% FTP = ? time at 100% Vo2max
1 pedal stroke at FTP = ? time at LT?
Boy, if Coggan was frequenting this forum there would be blood. He hates words to be put into his mouth and then criticized.
Maybe one should invest more time into learning what they want to bury first.
Coggan is not a fool you know. He knows and can figure out the same stuff you are talking about.
Anyway, not a Coggan fun but as a long time member of wattage group I read a lot of Coggan for more than 15 years.
If you have been reading a lot about Coggan for 15 years, you'd know that none of what I'm saying is new. A lot of what I said was in fact also discussed on the TrainingPeaks forums for years.

I discussed these matters with Hunter Allen several years ago. I pointed out these issues to Coggan as well (he never got back to me for whatever reason). Here is a quote from Coggan:

"FTP is a performance-based (functional) surrogate marker of an individual’s muscular metabolic fitness, i.e, his or her Lactate Threshold (LT), as the term is used conceptually by exercise physiologists." - I don't see how I am mischaracterizing Coggan's views at all.

Ultimately, Coggan decided that his 7 Zone system doesn't work, and replaced it with iLevels. I agree with you - he is not a fool, and his willingness to accept the flaws of his prior system shows he has intellectual integrity. Good on him, and good on TrainingPeaks. I mean that.
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

Andrew69 wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:04 am
AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 2:37 am
That could have been shortened too: I am going to waffle about a bunch of stuff I don't really know much about and make up some cool stories about stuff that never happened.
Cool story bro
Plan on acutually making a contribution to this thread or are you here to just heap crap onto IHB?

I can guarantee there are plenty of members that are thankful that IHB takes the time to post and members that are finally making progress in their training with out constantly fighting burnout and injury due to advice from "coaches" who advocate that the only way to improve is to constantly suffer on the bike.

Been there, done that, and still didnt get "fast" (how ever you want to define that).

It always fustrates me that people will say, "oh. there is more than one way to skin a cat", and then turn around and attack other people if they dont subscribe to their training methodology

Dont like what IHB has to say? Fine. No problem with that.
Then either present your own methodology along with studies to back up your opinion (just like IHB has) or STFU
We're here to debate, learn and share experiences, not to shut down discussion because it isnt in line with your current thinking.

I often wonder how many people get "fast" despite what they are doing, not because of what they are doing

F**k me, as if there isnt enough shit to deal with in the world at the moment.
Which training methodology do I prescribe to?

My contribution is: don't take training advice from forums, as you get what you pay for.

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

Zwift racer chatroom, are you kidding me. I don’t know anyone in this thread. The only person I have Zwifted with from WW that I don’t know IRL is RyanH, and I’m not in any group FB or Discord chats with him either.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

Tinea Pedis wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:55 am

I have - at not point in time - ever said this. It's a flat out lie. I'd implore him to find the quote but he won't. As it was never a position of mine or ever stated. IHB is fond of a strawman (and now trying to counter claim with it). Now it's just falsehoods.
OK, since I am apparently unblocked, let me respond.

The issue I am flagging with your post, is the below:
Tinea Pedis wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:55 am

I did the Bologna WTRL race. Easy enough to the base each time, vo2 all the way up. Twice. Session done. Vo2 box ticked. [Then you posted a screencapture of time spent in the various Coggan 7 Zones]

Two very distinct vo2 bouts.
My question is, and has been, how do you know you ticked the Vo2 box? How do you know, those efforts were "vo2 all the way up?" How do you know, there were two very distinct vo2 bouts?

When you account for the fact that there is lag leading up to Vo2Max, when Vo2Max efforts are limited by fatigue, blood lactate levels, availability of muscle fibers for recruitment into exertion, how can you possibly count the number of minutes you have spent at an appropriate intensity to stimulate Vo2Max gain, by just going out and racing?

You only know this if you somehow assume that Zone 5-6 are somehow linked to Vo2Max. In the old Coggan 7 Zone system you could possibly make this argument (but the math doesn't work out, and of course the old Zone system was abandoned). Now the iLevels removes Vo2Max from the equiation, how can you possibly know you spent ANY time at Vo2Max intensities?

I mean we spent what 10 pages arguing over whether or not it is reasonable to rely on Coggan's 7 zone system for Vo2Max work....and not a SINGLE ONE OF YOU actually addressed this question once. Do you realize how utterly absurd that is?

Just answer the question and move on. We can talk about whether or not structured Vo2Max intervals are good or bad for you separately, as that is a whole different topic with a whole other set of issues.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:37 am
Zwift racer chatroom, are you kidding me. I don’t know anyone in this thread. The only person I have Zwifted with from WW that I don’t know IRL is RyanH, and I’m not in any group FB or Discord chats with him either.
Irrelevant, don't get your pants twisted. Let's focus on the Coggan's 7 zone system being replaced.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

You still don’t get it. None of us care that much about that much specificity...it’s not about spending time at VO2max or any other zone. All I care about is holding onto wheels (and also making aggressive moves) because I race and I do “racey” rides. I care about being able to do X watts for Y minutes + all the other variables that contribute to speed. So forget about zones, iLevels or metabolic processes...we’re doing what makes us go fast and having fun.

For us Zones. Don’t. Matter. We don’t do structure.

But yeah keep peddling VO2max based workouts as the magic mushroom to people who aren’t even going to get their VO2max tested. That’ll help. That’ll keep people in the right headspace and they won’t burn out...

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:48 am
You still don’t get it. None of us care that much about that much specificity...it’s not about spending time at VO2max or any other zone. All I care about is holding onto wheels (and also making aggressive moves) because I race and I do “racey” rides. I care about being able to do X watts for Y minutes + all the other variables that contribute to speed. So forget about zones, iLevels or metabolic processes...we’re doing what makes us go fast and having fun.

For us Zones. Don’t. Matter. We don’t do structure.

But yeah keep peddling VO2max based workouts as the magic mushroom to people who aren’t even going to get their VO2max tested. That’ll help. That’ll keep people in the right headspace and they won’t burn out...
And yet TP posted his Times in Zone during a Zwift Race, posting the below:

"I did the Bologna WTRL race. Easy enough to the base each time, vo2 all the way up. Twice. Session done. Vo2 box ticked.

Two very distinct vo2 bouts."

I think YOU don't get it.
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

Is it possible that VO2max work can be done in a race? Or race simulation? Yes it is possible.

Thanks for playing folks, on to the next Strawman arguement - Why I think Coggan Zones suck, or whatever other pointless thing I want to throw a word salad over

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:56 am
Is it possible that VO2max work can be done in a race? Or race simulation? Yes it is possible.

Thanks for playing folks, on to the next Strawman arguement - Why I think Coggan Zones suck, or whatever other pointless thing I want to throw a word salad over
No, that wasn't the question. The question is, is it reasonable to rely on a race to do Vo2Max work in lieu of structured intervals?
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:59 am
AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:56 am
Is it possible that VO2max work can be done in a race? Or race simulation? Yes it is possible.

Thanks for playing folks, on to the next Strawman arguement - Why I think Coggan Zones suck, or whatever other pointless thing I want to throw a word salad over
No, that wasn't the question. The question is, is it reasonable to rely on a race to do Vo2Max work in lieu of structured intervals?
It depends.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:04 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:59 am
AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:56 am
Is it possible that VO2max work can be done in a race? Or race simulation? Yes it is possible.

Thanks for playing folks, on to the next Strawman arguement - Why I think Coggan Zones suck, or whatever other pointless thing I want to throw a word salad over
No, that wasn't the question. The question is, is it reasonable to rely on a race to do Vo2Max work in lieu of structured intervals?
It depends.
On what exactly? To answer this question, you need to be able to identify whether you spent ANY time in Vo2Max intensities during a race, and how MUCH time you spent at Vo2Max intensities. Is it possible to make these determinations? How do you know if/when you are at Vo2Max intensity at any point in any race?

After this step, then you need to balance this with the costs.

Then, you need to compare it with the costs/benefits of a structured Vo2Max workout.

Then, and only then, can you make an informed decision as to whether or not racing will be a reasonable alternative to doing a structured Vo2Max workout. Based on this, you may ultimately conclude that a specific Vo2Max is not worth it for you. But you need a basis and knowledge to make this decision.

Otherwise, your statement is equivalent to saying it is possible for a Hamburger to contain carbs, fats and protein, and vitamins, so it's reasonable to eat hamburgers for breakfast lunch and dinner in lieu of a balanced healthy diet.
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AeroObsessive
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by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:16 am
AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:04 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:59 am
AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:56 am
Is it possible that VO2max work can be done in a race? Or race simulation? Yes it is possible.

Thanks for playing folks, on to the next Strawman arguement - Why I think Coggan Zones suck, or whatever other pointless thing I want to throw a word salad over
No, that wasn't the question. The question is, is it reasonable to rely on a race to do Vo2Max work in lieu of structured intervals?
It depends.
On what exactly? To answer this question, you need to be able to identify whether you spent ANY time in Vo2Max intensities during a race, and how MUCH time you spent at Vo2Max intensities. Then you need to balance this with the costs.

Then you need to compare it with the costs/benefits of a structured Vo2Max workout. Then, and only then, can you make an informed decision as to whether or not racing will be a reasonable alternative to doing a structured Vo2Max workout. Based on this, you may ultimately conclude that a specific Vo2Max is not worth it for you. But you need a basis and knowledge to make this decision.

Otherwise, your statement is equivalent to saying it is possible for a Hamburger to contain carbs, fats and protein, and vitamins, so it's reasonable to eat hamburgers for breakfast lunch and dinner in lieu of a balanced healthy diet.
Your words, not mine (so, so many pointless words).

Again - it depends.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:28 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:16 am
AeroObsessive wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:04 am
iheartbianchi wrote:
Sun Sep 05, 2021 5:59 am


No, that wasn't the question. The question is, is it reasonable to rely on a race to do Vo2Max work in lieu of structured intervals?
It depends.
On what exactly? To answer this question, you need to be able to identify whether you spent ANY time in Vo2Max intensities during a race, and how MUCH time you spent at Vo2Max intensities. Then you need to balance this with the costs.

Then you need to compare it with the costs/benefits of a structured Vo2Max workout. Then, and only then, can you make an informed decision as to whether or not racing will be a reasonable alternative to doing a structured Vo2Max workout. Based on this, you may ultimately conclude that a specific Vo2Max is not worth it for you. But you need a basis and knowledge to make this decision.

Otherwise, your statement is equivalent to saying it is possible for a Hamburger to contain carbs, fats and protein, and vitamins, so it's reasonable to eat hamburgers for breakfast lunch and dinner in lieu of a balanced healthy diet.
Your words, not mine (so, so many pointless words).

Again - it depends.
So, you for one, are unable to answer these questions. That's fine. These are not easy questions to answer. But for people who train with power meters and power zones, this seems like a very casual, non-specific view of training.
Last edited by iheartbianchi on Sun Sep 05, 2021 6:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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