An hour at zone 3, is it useful?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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jasjas
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by jasjas

My remark on cheap PM's was in relation to wheels/smart trainers.... let alone the cost of bikes! you could buy 3 or 4 PT wheels or stages for the price of a set of Zipps.

Anyhow, for me, its not about either or... why not both ? using RPE as well.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

jasjas wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 6:33 am
My remark on cheap PM's was in relation to wheels/smart trainers.... let alone the cost of bikes! you could buy 3 or 4 PT wheels or stages for the price of a set of Zipps.

Anyhow, for me, its not about either or... why not both ? using RPE as well.
I know this is weight weenies, where we all own a set of Zipps :) But there's a much larger world out there of people still riding hard on aluminum wheels and 105-equipped bikes!
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MattMay
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by MattMay

@iheartbianchi I’m really enjoying your posts in this as well as the other more heated “rant” thread, and I’m curious your take on the following:

I’ve been reading Mark Sisson’s book Primal Endurance. (Btw, Nearly everything in it regarding training lines up with your position. He avoids all the zone talk by ascribing to Dr. Phil Maffetone’s formula for what he calls Aerobic Threshold...basically Zone 1/2 “nose breathing” using a formula of 180 - age. For me that’s 120 bpm.)

Here’s my question: he cites some research studies on the effects of aerobic versus anaerobic exercise coauthored by Carl Foster of University of Wisconsin-LaCrosse, and Stephen Seiler of Agder University College in Kristiansand, Norway.

It seems you and Foster/Seiler might disagree on one specific item: including a couple short intervals during a long slow ride being ok.

If I read your above posts right, you would disagree with the following, right?

“We think there’s a physiological tripwire. Slip into the black hole for a few minutes—or do an interval or two—and the body reads the whole workout as hard. It cancels the [aerobic session’s] recovery effect.”

The black hole he refers to is Z3 (of 5).

AJS914
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by AJS914

I wonder what they base that on. I mean, it sounds kind of bogus. If you do a few 1 minute intervals on a 3 hour Z1 endurance ride, how is your body going to know the difference? That is 3 minutes out of 180 of work out time. But I'd be interested to know where the idea comes from...

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MattMay
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by MattMay

I’m trying to find out more. I suspect it has to do with lactate. Kick up to your lactate threshold and the blood lactate level is the “tripwire.” I just had my lactate threshold test done today and I asked the tester, a credible coach here in So Cal the question, and he agreed: do not co-mingle at least until you are super fit. If you’re trying to build aerobic fitness by doing Z1 long slow miles, it’s not a good idea. If you’re not super fit, your lactate will remain at an elevated level for much longer than the time it takes you to complete the intensity intervals, and in fact may not come down to the level it was when you were at a 120 bpm level.

He proved it to me on the spot. After the test he had me warm down to where I started, at 120 and stay there for ten minutes more. He showed me my lactate level at the very end. When I started the test at 120, my level was 1.5. After reaching threshold and then back down to 120, then for another ten minutes, my level was twice what it was at the beginning at the same heart rate. Meaning: I’m not fit enough to clear the lactic acid quickly, so my body perceives the elevated level just as it would if I was in that black hole zone for an extended period. Which defeats the purpose.

That’s what I THINK the rationale is, but I’m just coming up to speed on this stuff. Would love to know more.

AJS914
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by AJS914

That's interesting.

One thing Dr. Seiler says in an interview is that amateurs generally have poor lactate clearance curves but after only 6-8 weeks of proper base training their clearance curves improve dramatically and start to resemble those of pro athletes.

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MattMay
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by MattMay

Then there’s hope for me!

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

MattMay wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:24 pm
“We think there’s a physiological tripwire. Slip into the black hole for a few minutes—or do an interval or two—and the body reads the whole workout as hard. It cancels the [aerobic session’s] recovery effect.”
I completely agree with this in fact! By the way, I thought I was clear when I was saying it is OK to do a few short sprints of 30 seconds or less, or maybe a "sweet spot" segment or two of maybe 2-3 minutes, during a long slow ride.

Anyways, hard efforts during a slow ride can lead to a black hole for a number of factors, the major ones being: 1) hemaetological response, 2) lactate, 3) metabolic response and 4) recruitment of fast twitch muscles

If you read the below:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6090390/

You can see that even a limited amount of HIIT (the study looked at 4 reps of 30 second sprints with 4 minute recovery) results in greatly exaggerated hemaetological responses both immediately after and 24 hours after the ride, as opposed to steady aerobic exercise. So your body, at least on the blood level, will react to the entire exercise as a "hard" exercise. How hard is completely subjective of course, but if you're not doing dedicated hard sessions each week, then this doesn't really matter (in my opinion). It's a very different story if you have an interval session planned the day after.

If you look at metabolic reactions, the same thing occurs. Your body begins processing energy quite differently (and far less efficiently) at high intensities.

And as mentioned above, you will have accumulated lactate, which can hamper your recovery. And if you're not really fit, your body may not be able to remove this excess lactate during the course of the ride, which can hamper the entirety of your ride.

Also, you will recruit fast twitch muscles into your pedalling, which will carry over into the slower portions. You're trying to strengthen your slow-twtich muscle fibers during your slow rides, not bypass them and build new fast-twitch muscle fibers.

So it's all a measure of degrees here. If you're not doing a dedicated sprint or interval session each week, I think it's perfectly fine to incorporate a few sprints or "sweet spot" segments into a long ride. If you are doing a dedicated sprint or interval session each week, then you have to be really careful.
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iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

AJS914 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:06 pm
That's interesting.

One thing Dr. Seiler says in an interview is that amateurs generally have poor lactate clearance curves but after only 6-8 weeks of proper base training their clearance curves improve dramatically and start to resemble those of pro athletes.
This is very true. Amateurs tend to have extremely poor ability to clear lactate, with some being measured to have lactate thresholds of 40% of MaxHR (another reason why I am very wary of FTP and LTHP tests for amateurs :))! But just a few months of solid aerobic training can quickly get you into the 60s/70s and eventually build you up to 80-85% with highly effective training.

As mentioned elsewhere, every muscle contraction results in lactic acid (scientifically it is around 25% of maximal oxygen uptake so it's a very low point), so everytime you move a muscle, your body is creating lactate, and removing lactate. So by extension, even easy aerobic exercise gives your body a lot of training in removing lactate, at least for untrained athletes. So this is in contrast to the misunderstanding many people tend to have, which is that you must be doing specific lactate threshold training, or "tempo rides", to improve your lactate threshold. This is not the case for most amateurs. It IS helpful if you are a trained athlete and are trying to increase your lactate threshold from say 75% to 80%, namely because at low intensities the lactate accumulation is fairly small and your body doesn't need to make any further adapations to rapidly remove lactate, whereas at higher intensities you are rapdily accumulating lactate and your body will need to adapt to rapdily remove lactate.
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zefs
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by zefs

Also lactic acid gets converted into glucose so it's useful when doing high intensity exercise, that is why carbs help.

High intensity -> carbs break down to glucose -> glucose break down -> lactate production -> conversion of lactate to glucose
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid

That is probably why Z3 is declared as "no-zone" because you need to be higher than that (Z4) to achieve gluconeogenesis or lower (Z2) to use fat burning energy system, depending on what kind of ride you are doing.

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MattMay
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by MattMay

Thanks all, think I ”get it.” Very helpful. Besides that, the science is fascinating and kind of addicting. Think I read a dozen journal articles last night.

blaugrana
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by blaugrana

zefs wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 7:46 am
That is probably why Z3 is declared as "no-zone" because you need to be higher than that (Z4) to achieve gluconeogenesis or lower (Z2) to use fat burning energy system, depending on what kind of ride you are doing.
But you are not burning less fat at Z3 than at Z2, quite the opposite. The proportion of fat burned compared to total energy consumption will be lower, though, tha'ts true.

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

blaugrana wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 pm
zefs wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 7:46 am
That is probably why Z3 is declared as "no-zone" because you need to be higher than that (Z4) to achieve gluconeogenesis or lower (Z2) to use fat burning energy system, depending on what kind of ride you are doing.
But you are not burning less fat at Z3 than at Z2, quite the opposite. The proportion of fat burned compared to total energy consumption will be lower, though, tha'ts true.
I am not a nutriotist so take everything I say with a grain of salt. The burning of fat during aerobic exercise (and following exercise) is an incredibly complicated process, and seems to depend on your fitness levels as well as the amount of muscle mass you have and your dietary habits (e.g., how much fat you ate in the 2-4 week period prior to exercise). But there seems to be a general trend that the higher intensity workouts burn less fat as an energy source.

1. This is a really old study, and really the source of a lot of our common knowledge on "burning fat", which indicates that at Zone 1 or Zone 2, that approximately 50-60% of your energy is derived from fat, decreasing as the intensity increases (10-45% up to roughly Zone 4).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6571234

2. The following study (from 1998) builds on the above, saying that at higher intensities, glycogen breakdown actually inhibits fatty acid oxidation which would explain why your body uses less fat in higher intensiities.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9781322

3. This next more recent study (2016) builds further on the above, and suggests that fat utilization ends around your anaerbic threshold (Zone 4), thus Zone 4 training also is meant to increase your body's efficiency in utilizing carbohydates as an energy source:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5007242/

4. The above confirmed in the following study (2018)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28745473

5. BUT, this is all confounded by research such as the below, which indicates that HIIT increases fat metabolism!!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19088769

https://touroscholar.touro.edu/cgi/view ... ext=sjlcas

I think, and this is just my opinion...the above research states "Major adaptations during exercise included the following: (i) reduced glycogenolysis, lactate accumulation". In 2 above, we learn that gycogenolysis increases at higher exercise intensities, which inhibits the utilization of fat as an energy source. However, 3 above states that your body becomes more efficient at utilizing carbohydrates at higher intensities, thus reducing glycogenolysis, and we can infer that would mean there would be a decrease in the inhibition on fat utilization. We can then infer that HIIT may in fact increase your fat metabolism!

BUT, this is further complicated by studies such as this (2002) which indicate that HIIT did not in fact result in increased fat metabolism:

https://www.physiology.org/doi/full/10. ... 00030.2001

All very complicated isn't it :)
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zefs
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by zefs

HIIT could be speeding up metabolism in general over time which in return would allow you to burn more fat again over time but not instantly like Z2 efforts I would imagine. So doing everything would be benefitial.
blaugrana wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 4:33 pm
But you are not burning less fat at Z3 than at Z2, quite the opposite. The proportion of fat burned compared to total energy consumption will be lower, though, tha'ts true.
Yeah probably, because you are able to do 5-6 hour Z2 rides but not the same amount at Z3.

AJS914
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by AJS914

Is there any enhanced training effect to stacking LSD workouts into a mini training camp? I mean, say one usually rides 10 hours a week but you put in 10 hours over 3 days such that by the 4the day you are pretty tired and need rest. All rides would be long slow distance - 60% of max HR or so.

The 2nd and 3rd rides would be done in a progressively more fatigued state.

Or, would you get the same training effect spacing out those rides during the week and doing each one more rested and recovered?

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