Who's doing what this winter - TrainerRoad, Zwift, Sufferfest, Xert etc?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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AJS914
Posts: 3480
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

calleking wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:18 am
Yes, 4 intervals of 8 minutes. There are many sources for the study. Here is one: http://www.bikepartsreview.com/Polarize ... _nbUzlwGdM
Dr. Seiler was on the Velonews Fast Talk podcast for a few episodes recently. They are very good.

That article though is a bit confusing. For starters:
You might not be able to get to 20 hours, but you could increase from say 6 hours to 12 hours.
Increasing from 6 to 12 is a tall order for most recreational cyclists.

In that article he talks about different types of zones which is confusing. Seiler uses the 3 zone model. The article shows the 5 zone model. The majority of riding should be zone 1 (really slow, the classic long slow distance). That 20% is in zone 3. Is that 20% of rides or 20% of training time? If you ride 12 hours per week as the article suggests, then that would be 2.4 hours spent in zone 3 doing intervals. 2.4 hours of accumulated time in intervals is a lot of time. I also read that it was 20% of rides in zone 3 which makes a bit more sense. 4 x 8 min twice a week though is an 64 minutes at the interval pace or about 8% if you ride 12 hours a week.

The slides of pro athletes show 2, 6, and 18% of time spent in the red zone.

by Weenie


Shrike
Posts: 1652
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

What I needed to know from the article was whether if I increased my 6 hours to 12, would the periodised approach still be preferable over say sweet spot.

I think this is where the debate needs to be had for most serious recreational and amateur riders.

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I agree and I don't think the article answers it. I think most people need to be somewhere in the middle. 12 hours on the bike is a lot of time and most people can't devote that much time to training.

The trainer road guys talked about this briefly in a recent podcast. Their conclusion was that it would be better for a time crunched amateur to work on increasing FTP. An amateur who jumps into structured training can possibly increase their FTP by 20, 30, 60+ watts in a relatively short amount of time. They also said that high volume helps pros because they are already near their maximum FTP. Pros are also contending in 5 hour races so they need the level of endurance that comes with high volume.

I've been listening to the Velonews Fasttalk podcast a lot and a couple of the takeaways were:

Do an extra long ride every 7-10 days to get some of the same benefits that you get from high volume training.

Once every month or two, do a mini training camp by stacking together 3-4 big days.

Marin
Posts: 3521
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:48 am
Location: Vienna Austria

by Marin

I go out and ride my bike whenever I can, does that still count?

Oh, and I commute by bike too, so I get an hour of riding even when I don't get to ride a nice bike.

Sometimes I ride a good bike to work and take the long way though.

I have a set of rollers, very practical for tweaking the shifting. I don't think I've ever been on them for more than 3 minutes however.

mcfarton
Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:15 pm

by mcfarton

I enrolled in the zwift build me up plan. It is 5-6 hours per week. If the weather and my family line up I ride outside on the weekends.


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Dannnnn
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:00 pm

by Dannnnn

Zwift for me at the moment.
Might switch to Sufferfest but with a baby arriving very soon, Zwift might be the better choice.

calleking
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:20 pm

by calleking

AJS914 wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:42 pm
calleking wrote:
Sun Nov 25, 2018 12:18 am
Yes, 4 intervals of 8 minutes. There are many sources for the study. Here is one: http://www.bikepartsreview.com/Polarize ... _nbUzlwGdM
Dr. Seiler was on the Velonews Fast Talk podcast for a few episodes recently. They are very good.

That article though is a bit confusing. For starters:
You might not be able to get to 20 hours, but you could increase from say 6 hours to 12 hours.
Increasing from 6 to 12 is a tall order for most recreational cyclists.

In that article he talks about different types of zones which is confusing. Seiler uses the 3 zone model. The article shows the 5 zone model. The majority of riding should be zone 1 (really slow, the classic long slow distance). That 20% is in zone 3. Is that 20% of rides or 20% of training time? If you ride 12 hours per week as the article suggests, then that would be 2.4 hours spent in zone 3 doing intervals. 2.4 hours of accumulated time in intervals is a lot of time. I also read that it was 20% of rides in zone 3 which makes a bit more sense. 4 x 8 min twice a week though is an 64 minutes at the interval pace or about 8% if you ride 12 hours a week.

The slides of pro athletes show 2, 6, and 18% of time spent in the red zone.
Like I pointed out earlier: There are many sources for his research.:

https://goo.gl/ESDnr8
https://goo.gl/VPNR6i

The 80-20 ratio is based on sessions and the rule isn't entirely strict. Pro athletes land closer to 90-10 when doing blocks of 30 hours per week. Some research indicates that a polarized approach with as little as 6 hours per week is better than threshold training. It doesn't mean you should throw threshold training out the window. It still has its place and more race specific intervals are incorporated among the pros prior to an event or their race season. One more thing to consider is that although the research points at POL (polarized training) being better than threshold training it all dependson your background and your level.

I guess the main thing here is that research shows that endurance sports are very dependent on an aerobic base and that doing lots of "not so sexy" easy training gives you mitochondrial and capillary density. The easy/slower training also serves a purpose since it lets you be fresh for the harder sessions.

Seilers zones were initially established from heart rate as they refer to ventilatory thresholds VT and VT2. They can ofcourse be recalculated to % of your FTP. VT1 and VT2 are where the boundaries for where Z1 ends and where Z3 starts. Comparing it to power zones VT1 is the upper limit of endurance pace and VT2 is around threshold power.

Even during a hard session the accumulated time around 90% of HRmax is quite small since it takes a couple of minutes to get there on each interval. Add warmup, rest between intervals and the cool down and you quickly realize that most of your time is spent well below it.

There are many details around but the concept is quite straight forward. I think cyclist using power meters get a bit confused at first with the zones and the vo2 references in the research.

I've done lots of sweetspot/threshold last 4-5 years but switched to POL a year ago. I commute two hours per day. In the morning it's easy and sometimes fasted. Twice a week I go really hard on my way home. That's 10 hours I spend on the bike instead of being in a car or a train. On the weekends I try to squeeze in a ride that is at least 90 minutes but usually it's close to 3 hours. There are some important adaptations that seem to happen after 90 minutes and my normal commutes or only 60. Also, most races are not much more than 4 hours so a 3 hour ride is more than enough for me to compete. My FTP has increased with 15-20W per year (more in the beginning ofc) and this last year with a polarized approach it's close to 30W higher at 360W / 5w/kg. It felt wrong in the beginning to go so easy but once you do the hard sessions you have no option to go relatively easy in order to cope with them.
2018 S-Works Tarmac SL6 Sagan Superstar DA Di2
2016 Focus Mares CX
2016 Grand Canyon AL 8.0

Retired: 2014 Crux Elite, 2017 Cannondale Slate Ultegra, 2016 Aeroad CF SLX 8.0 DI2

AJS914
Posts: 3480
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I just listened to episode 54. It sums it up quite well:

https://www.velonews.com/2018/08/news/f ... ler_477253

My problem is that I can't do 10-12 hours on the bike. I don't want to spend that much time on the bike in zone 1. If I had a few team mates to do it with, it might be ok.

For the average Joe, I think the question still comes down to what you do if you are going to be on the bike 6-8 hours a week. Try sweet spot or stay with the polarized model? On 6 hours a week, that would still be 36 minutes in zone 3.

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Lewn777
Posts: 833
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 5:35 am

by Lewn777

Road bike outside ruuning repeats a 'car-free' cat 4 three times a week. Then a long Fondo on Saturday.
When it gets icy or snowy I'll switch to the MTB with Hans Dampf 2.35's that can handle any surface. But I have to go without power data. Skiing if possible too.

Riding indoors is noisy and upsets the neighbours.

haze513
Posts: 2
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2015 4:34 pm

by haze513

TrainerRoad for the structured stuff with the occasional session swapped to outdoors when time/weather/mood permits. Supported with the odd FulGaz ride when I fancy something less structured, and a longer club ride at the weekend.

I never got the Zwift thing being more engaging, I find it engaging enough being in the interval with maybe some music on for a bit of interest. Maybe it would work better for longer Z2 rides or something but I've got FG for that.

That's seen me in good shape last couple of years, although no racing next year after injury so my biggest enemy will be motivation.

bilwit
Posts: 1204
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

I've been experimenting with TrainerRoad over the last few months, seeing what works for me. I find it really, really hard to stay motivated around the 5th or 6th week of interval training on the Kickr. Some of their stuff like High Volume is just not sustainable for me to do for 8+ weeks. 2 to 2.5 hours on the trainer every day is just nuts. From a physical standpoint, there really is no comparison between TSS accumulated via intervals on a trainer and the same amount of TSS accumulated outside. From a mental standpoint, it's SUCH a relief to ride outdoors after long blocks on the trainer. It's just so mentally draining to be on that thing for hours and days and weeks at a time.

My current plan this is to do a "mid volume" TrainerRoad plan but not treat it as do-or-die like I have done in the past and burned out. If I need to swap intervals with an outdoor ride with friends on the weekend or shift the plan over a few days to take some days off for Christmas, no big deal. If I need to take an extra day off because I got home late from work and not feeling it, it's not the end of the world.

As a software/website, I feel like TrainerRoad has gotten really mature. Not only for the volume of workouts and plans they provide, but now they have a calendar planner and ride data power analysis. I used to use Strava premium ("summit")--which is nice to have everything in one place--but now that TR has it, there's no point for paying for Strava, especially when it doesn't really seem like they're innovating much in that department.

bm0p700f
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by bm0p700f

Happy miles on muddy tracks and lanes for me cone rain, wind, cold, snow or ice. Winter is not a time for for intervals. Also the trainer does not get me to the shop. The bike does.

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ms6073
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Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:24 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

by ms6073

bilwit wrote:
Thu Nov 29, 2018 1:04 am
2 to 2.5 hours on the trainer every day is just nuts. From a physical standpoint, there really is no comparison between TSS accumulated via intervals on a trainer and the same amount of TSS accumulated outside.
Inertia is your friend. :beerchug:

No arguing that spending that kind of time on the trainer everyday get very tedious but how many of us are able to accumulate the same TSS in that amount of time while riding solo outdoors?
Michael - The Anaerobic Threshold is neither...

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Matt28NJ
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:16 am

by Matt28NJ

Trainerroad, 5 hrs/ week.

It's more of a mental battle than physical, especially in the dark days of winter.

by Weenie


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TonyM
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Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:11 pm

by TonyM

Like in the last 30 years (except 2 years ago with TrainerRoad/ FTP/ Watts etc...) I am doing my base miles in the winter. No intensity at all. On the weekend a long ride. Until Feb then the distance increase up to 150-170km for the long ride. Most important for me is to continue to exercice and loose my winter weight....

If I would race I would however have a mix between base miles and intensity training.

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