Anyone lost a lot of weight, and kept it off?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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853guy
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:48 pm

by 853guy

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:34 am
They say eggs are great for satiety too, but I'm going to try and dodge animal products as much as possible and see where that takes me on my journey.

Biggest problem so far has been looking bloated even though I've been around 500 to 700 cal deficit since Wednesday. Maybe I put too much salt in the vegetables. Wholemeal bread, apples, broccoli have been the staple for days now (read that these are all bad for bloating) so wondering if that's something a lot of people experience when moving towards a more whole for diet and puts them off? Will stop adding salt to veggies from today and see if it helps.
Hi shrike,

Congrats on the progress so far.

Yep, bloating sucks, or I guess more accurately, blows.

I had various stages of bloating, and all of them were related to the ingestion of too many vegetables, or too much of the same type of food - especially if it was raw. Specifically, I discovered it was also related to too much of the same types of plant fiber, causing excessive gas. I found it really discouraging.

Since reverting to a diet primarily based on animal prodcuts, fats (olive oil, coconut oil), and seeds/nuts, with smaller portions of vegatables and a little bit of fruit and dairy, the bloating has become a thing of the past. I've also included more seeds and ground nuts for fibre, rather than relying solely on plants.

Yesteday, I ate my first meal at 1pm, consisting of five whole free-frange organic scrambled eggs; five large cloves of garlic; a medium sized shallot; pumkin, chia and sunflower seeds; pine nuts; ground almonds; and lemon juice. I then had a small bowl of natural (non-sweetened) Greek-style yoghurt with chia seeds and half a banana; followed by a Bulletproof-style coffee (x2).

Then for dinner at 6pm, I had a medium sized portion of turkey pieces, in a home-made curry sauce, and some green beans. That was it.

So aside from the yoghurt (which is of course a fermented food, made up of two ingredients), everything was whole foods. But very few of the calories came from vegetables. Most of it was animal protein, fats, and seeds/nuts.

So while I totally get many choose a vegan diet for lots of very valid and credible reasons, my own journey lead me away from it. Certainly, I think Conza's Konrad Graf link sums up why it didn't prove sustainable for me personally. Also, I just got to the point of owning the fact I really enjoy eating sustainably gathered red and white meat, fish and eggs, and though I understand there are good arguments for not eating from those sources, I've chosen to do so, and not just for the health benefits.

And although I've mentioned this before, often the caloric deficit itself is not enough and in fact, caloric defecit can lead to bloating and/or fat storage. If your body feels like it's being stressed beyond it's hormonal balance, it will pump cortisol into your system and if your diet is mostly carbs, well, you'll be pumping in insulin.

I know, I know... bro science is everwhere. And I'm just some anonymous guy on an internet forum. But here's two additional links that offer some idas as to why caloric deficit can lead to weight gain.

http://physiqonomics.com/8-reasons-calorie-deficit/

https://bayesianbodybuilding.com/energy-balance-myths/

Bon courage!

853guy

queloque67
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:25 am

by queloque67

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:34 am
queloque67 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:25 pm

Food Density...reason Whole Food plant based eating doesn't require counting calories...you will become full way before you reach caloric overload. One can eat a large bag of chips, or a dozen donuts, or a whole pizza, or a 1/2 a chicken with fries and a bisquit without a problem....especially men and eat soon after 3 hours later. Very hard when its whole foods plant based due the the fiber and nutritional density within a small amount of calories. Eating a whole tub of spinach is only 60 calories and covers almost everything a multi vitamin covers just from spinach.
Veggies are 100 calories per pound
Fruit are 300 calories per pound
Whole Grains are 500 calories per pound
Beans are 600 calories per pound
Animal products are 1000 to 1300 calories per pound
Refined Carbs/white flour 1400 calories per pound
Junk Food are 2300 calories per pound
nuts and seeds 2800 calories per pound
oil 4000 calories per pound

If you ate simply by following the food density perimeters you probably could succeed just as well if you didn't go plant based. Its not for everyone especially those bounded by traditional eating in our culture. So for others who are reading this, i'm not pushing any vegan agenda. The person asked a question and i'm only telling them what I do or have done. Thats it. So please don't attack me. i've always been a quantity based eater and this for me allows me to go to town with food and not gain weight and drop 40 pounds since I started 4 years ago and keep it off.

Mentok I hope this helped. If it didn't let me know if you need more elaboration. in the end eat what you like don't eat what you can't enjoy. Taste buds do change. Veggies are sweeter to me.
I read your post at the start of the weekend and have been following up on it. I've never seen a list about calorie density before put that simply. Now the whole food/plant based thing makes perfect sense to me. It is definitely for me the way forward. Started simply at the weekend, using a 1/2 kg of broccoli and 1/2 of cauliflower as a base for lunch and dinner (tasted great with fresh chillies, garlic, salt and lemon mixed in. Only 300 calories for a kilo weight of food! Added 350 cal of white pasta to it though which ruined it a bit. Wholewheat pasta doesn't seem much better, same density. Maybe boiled potatoes. Will get both this weekend and see. Used tofu for protein, but would like to try some sort of beans but they seem quite calorie dense.

Early days, but so far so good. Today I have no riding, so will need to go quite low on cals as I'm dieting at the moment (want to lose 3kg more by summer). Monday's will be hard that way.

So far I did:

1/2 protein shake 50 cal
Apple 150 cal
2 small oranges 100 cal
Pear 200 cal

Total Breakfast: 500 cal

10.30am here and feel fine. Would have preferred to fast until lunch but was feeling a little light headed earlier and have too much on this morning so..

They say eggs are great for satiety too, but I'm going to try and dodge animal products as much as possible and see where that takes me on my journey.

Biggest problem so far has been looking bloated even though I've been around 500 to 700 cal deficit since Wednesday. Maybe I put too much salt in the vegetables. Wholemeal bread, apples, broccoli have been the staple for days now (read that these are all bad for bloating) so wondering if that's something a lot of people experience when moving towards a more whole for diet and puts them off? Will stop adding salt to veggies from today and see if it helps.
Bloating has a lot more to do with your gut biome more so than the food itself. You gut has to get use to the change and it can take 6 months. Your gut bacteria population consist of what you eat the most. 80% of your immunity is in your gut and also play a key role in controlling your weight. Your digestion is full of bacteria of your previous eating habits and would be replaced with different bacteria based on your new eating habits. At times I eat 8 bananas and never bloat...I did bloat 4 years ago when I went plant based...not an issue any more. I poop 2 to 3 times a day and believe it or not your gut bacteria dictates your cravings. They want to survive and they will do anything to do it. They represent 10 times more in population than the cells on your body.
But you produce more of the ones that prefer the foods that you eat. So you have to eat foods high in fiber to cultivate your gut bacteria.

This is from the National Institute of health.
" The number of these microbes is ten times more than the human cells. Gut bacteria are important components of the microbiota ecosystem in the human gut. Commensal bacteria colonize in the gut shortly after birth and comprise approximate 1000 species, most of which are unknown species belonging to anaerobic strains [2,3].

Gut bacteria are an important component of the microbiota ecosystem in the human gut, which is colonized by 1014 microbes, ten times more than the human cells. Gut bacteria play an important role in human health, such as supplying essential nutrients, synthesizing vitamin K, aiding in the digestion of cellulose, and promoting angiogenesis and enteric nerve function. However, they can also be potentially harmful due to the change of their composition when the gut ecosystem undergoes abnormal changes in the light of the use of antibiotics, illness, stress, aging, bad dietary habits, and lifestyle. Dysbiosis of the gut bacteria communities can cause many chronic diseases, such as inflammatory bowel disease, obesity, cancer, and autism. This review summarizes and discusses the roles and potential mechanisms of gut bacteria in human health and diseases.

the composition of the gut bacteria community in the stomach and colon is distinctive, which is mainly due to different physicochemical conditions, such as intestinal motility, pH value, redox condition, nutrients, host secretions (e.g., gastric acid, bile, digestive enzymes, and mucus), and the presence of an intact ileocaecal valve [5]. Additionally, they can be influenced by many factors, such as the use of antibiotics, illness, stress, aging, bad dietary habits and lifestyle

Gut bacteria are essential for the transformation of natural compounds (e.g., lignans) to perform their bioactivities. Lignans are present in a wide range of foods, such as flaxseed, vegetable, fruit, and beverages. Lignans afford protection against cardiovascular diseases, hyperlipidemia, breast cancer, colon cancer, prostate cancer, osteoporosis and menopausal syndrome, dependent on the bioactivation of these compounds to enterolactone

Another study showed the short-term consumption of diets composed entirely of animal meat, eggs, and cheeses or plant rich in grains, legumes, fruits, and vegetables, altered microbial community structure and overwhelmed inter-individual differences in microbial gene expression.

Fiber was another dietary factor that impacted the composition of gut bacteria. A study showed that subjects on a fiber-blend fortified enteral formula had less negative symptoms related to bowel urgency, and decreases in total bacteria and Bifidobacteria were less severe compared with the fiber-free formula"

However, some dietary factors may be harmful, such as dietary iron. Dietary iron mostly from red meat and fortified cereals can also change the gut bacteria composition. Other luminal iron is from cigarette smoking. Increased iron availability may increase the proliferation and virulence of gut bacteria and increase the permeability of the gut barrier. A study showed that increased iron exposure contributed to the colonization of certain bacterial pathogens including Salmonella [40]. It may be a risk factor for colorectal cancer.

But its true....."you are what you eat".

a lot more to the study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4425030/
Last edited by queloque67 on Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


Shrike
Posts: 1316
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

@853 great links cheers, made me think about my protein intake actually, which I've really cut back on to pack in more carbs to try and load a bit for workouts which are super hard on a deficit. Since then though I see to want to overeat more. I can fast pretty good these days, but when I start eating then I really want to keep eating for around 1500 to 2000 cals! It's crazy. Maybe I need to try more protein. Do you do anything like intervals sessions when riding?

@quelo I'm prepared to give it a proper dig. Water retention etc I can handle mentally as I'm not out on the beach or anything, though would like to get it sorted by summer. Really good to know it should regulate itself given time though thanks as I was kinda just blaming salt there and I think I'd have struggled eating a lot of veg without some salt :)

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jekyll man
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Location: Pack filler

by jekyll man

CBA to read all the way through, but sort the low hanging fruit first.
Vending machine coffee etc are high cal for their content. Its about 100kcal a cup. Ditch it. Boil a kettle and make a tea.
Costa/ starbucks if you frequent there, look at the content of their drinks. Med Mocha is like 600 or something. Americano if you do anything.
Fruit juice is very high, and doesnt necessarily give you the benefits of eating the same fruit.
Bread- get it out of your life.
You'll be amazed how quick weight falls off just doing these things.
Official cafe stop tester

joejack951
Posts: 434
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:50 pm
Location: Wilmington, DE

by joejack951

jekyll man wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:04 pm
Vending machine coffee etc are high cal for their content. Its about 100kcal a cup. Ditch it. Boil a kettle and make a tea.
Costa/ starbucks if you frequent there, look at the content of their drinks. Med Mocha is like 600 or something. Americano if you do anything.
Yeah, definitely avoid those massive desserts in a cup sold as 'coffee.' But there is no inherent problem drinking coffee while dieting. Just drink it black. Even a large 20 oz./600 ml is only 5 calories then. I get tired of just water all time so coffee is a nice alternative but low calorie drink for me. I do enjoy the unsweetened flavored seltzer waters (La Croix), too.

queloque67
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:25 am

by queloque67

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:48 pm
@853 great links cheers, made me think about my protein intake actually, which I've really cut back on to pack in more carbs to try and load a bit for workouts which are super hard on a deficit. Since then though I see to want to overeat more. I can fast pretty good these days, but when I start eating then I really want to keep eating for around 1500 to 2000 cals! It's crazy. Maybe I need to try more protein. Do you do anything like intervals sessions when riding?

@quelo I'm prepared to give it a proper dig. Water retention etc I can handle mentally as I'm not out on the beach or anything, though would like to get it sorted by summer. Really good to know it should regulate itself given time though thanks as I was kinda just blaming salt there and I think I'd have struggled eating a lot of veg without some salt :)
Fasting helps a lot too. I do 3 day fast every quarter. I plan on doing a 5 day fast 2nd quarter. And of course eating beginning in the afternoon which by definition is Intermittent fasting. Gives your body time to completely digest and transport nutrients to the muscles. So when you are riding you are not digesting and running on all cylinders. Granted if you are doing long rides you would need some nutrients but I rode 80 miles once without eating. So I know it can be done.

User avatar
853guy
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:48 pm

by 853guy

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:48 pm
@853 great links cheers, made me think about my protein intake actually, which I've really cut back on to pack in more carbs to try and load a bit for workouts which are super hard on a deficit. Since then though I see to want to overeat more. I can fast pretty good these days, but when I start eating then I really want to keep eating for around 1500 to 2000 cals! It's crazy. Maybe I need to try more protein. Do you do anything like intervals sessions when riding?
Hi Shrike,

Yep, again: Organic and sustainable animal protein, (good) fats, fiber from seeds and nuts; medium to low amounts of fruits, veges and dairy; intermittent fasting; lots of Bulletproof-style coffee, herbal teas, water and a glass of red wine; plus one high-carb meal a week (restaurant, home-based) has worked better for me than plant-based, and much better than simply cutting calories in a caloric deficit diet.

As to training... I'm coming back to cycling after many years away. Did lots of MTBing in my teens and twenties and was pretty lean. Problem was, I was picking up knee-and shoulder-related injuries from a combination of poor technique (I was a masher, and rode rigid), and drumming in hardcore bands at ridiculous volume, which I was simply ignoring. By the time I reached my 30's I was in a lot of chronic pain. Also, I went into advertising and ended up sitting down for up to twelve hours in front of a Mac. Physically, I was a wreck, and the high-carb, high-sugar diet I had seemed to get away with in my teens and twenties was causing havoc.

So the diet had to be changed first. Exercise could wait, and anyway, I was wary of aggravating old injuries.

Before I started cycling, I started with small body weight exercises, and then introduced kettlebells, with a focus on core strength, and glute/hamstring activation which had suffered massively through all the sitting. This was also to keep up muscle mass, which was easily deteriorated, especially on a plant-based diet (again, for me).

Once I was up to strength, had lost weight (fat, not muscle mass) and lived on the above diet for over a year I re-introduced cycling, but again, very gradually, with days off between exercise for recovery (again, exercise cannot be the main source of health for me given my lifestyle - father, husband, career, etc). My habit is to push myself and overdo things. After a 60km ride through the mountains (just under a 1000m of climbing), I came home with sore knees freaked out I was never going to cycle again. So I've learned that high-intensity is fine - in fact, in my case it's preferable - but there must days allowed for recovery. So yes, riding consists of some HIIT sessions, but alternated with gentler, longer rides with plenty of time for recovery.

For me, this is all about long-term sustainable health and it's been a journey of over five years thus far. I would love to be doing what half the guys on this forum are doing riding wise, but I'm not them (again, no comparisons). I'm 44, coming back from years of crap food and ignoring pain, and simply looking at building a base this year. Next year, I'll look to up the riding, with some specific goals (Ventoux), but for right now, I just have to take it one step at a time.

Results can't be rushed. You can't out-train you diet. Shortcuts have more downside than upside. Yes, I'm looking and feeling the best I ever have, but it's all been slow progress, which for me, is the only kind I think guarantees the longest-lasting results.

Best!

853guy

queloque67
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:25 am

by queloque67

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:34 am
queloque67 wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 9:25 pm

Food Density...reason Whole Food plant based eating doesn't require counting calories...you will become full way before you reach caloric overload. One can eat a large bag of chips, or a dozen donuts, or a whole pizza, or a 1/2 a chicken with fries and a bisquit without a problem....especially men and eat soon after 3 hours later. Very hard when its whole foods plant based due the the fiber and nutritional density within a small amount of calories. Eating a whole tub of spinach is only 60 calories and covers almost everything a multi vitamin covers just from spinach.
Veggies are 100 calories per pound
Fruit are 300 calories per pound
Whole Grains are 500 calories per pound
Beans are 600 calories per pound
Animal products are 1000 to 1300 calories per pound
Refined Carbs/white flour 1400 calories per pound
Junk Food are 2300 calories per pound
nuts and seeds 2800 calories per pound
oil 4000 calories per pound

If you ate simply by following the food density perimeters you probably could succeed just as well if you didn't go plant based. Its not for everyone especially those bounded by traditional eating in our culture. So for others who are reading this, i'm not pushing any vegan agenda. The person asked a question and i'm only telling them what I do or have done. Thats it. So please don't attack me. i've always been a quantity based eater and this for me allows me to go to town with food and not gain weight and drop 40 pounds since I started 4 years ago and keep it off.

Mentok I hope this helped. If it didn't let me know if you need more elaboration. in the end eat what you like don't eat what you can't enjoy. Taste buds do change. Veggies are sweeter to me.
I read your post at the start of the weekend and have been following up on it. I've never seen a list about calorie density before put that simply. Now the whole food/plant based thing makes perfect sense to me. It is definitely for me the way forward. Started simply at the weekend, using a 1/2 kg of broccoli and 1/2 of cauliflower as a base for lunch and dinner (tasted great with fresh chillies, garlic, salt and lemon mixed in. Only 300 calories for a kilo weight of food! Added 350 cal of white pasta to it though which ruined it a bit. Wholewheat pasta doesn't seem much better, same density. Maybe boiled potatoes. Will get both this weekend and see. Used tofu for protein, but would like to try some sort of beans but they seem quite calorie dense.
Also on the food density. Thats why so many fall into the overeating part. Fats and refined sugars are easily hidden in foods like meats and refined white flour and beverages. They are so highly concentrated and can fit in the palm of your hand yet super high in calories. You don't see those hidden calories and people discount them and have no idea how much was used in foods when they eat out. And we tend to under-estimate our calories. Almost 150 calories for a tablespoon of oil yet often foods are saturated in it but since its clear in appearance you have no clue how much except what is written on a label. Same with refined sugar or refined flour. As far as protein if you eat enough you will get enough protein. People are eating 3 times as much protein these days.....no need at all. I don't see beans as very dense compared to meat. Plus the amount of fiber in beans cancel out total carbs because they are not digested and play a key role as a prebiotic. Plus it doesn't come with the baggage most meats bring just to get protein but that's a personal choice. if you want to know how foods play a role inside your body beyond performance gains get blood work done before and after once a year every year and get the coronary calcium scan which is called CT scan of your heart that detects and measures the amount of calcium in the walls of your coronary arteries. Buildup of calcium, or calcifications which are signs of atherosclerosis, coronary heart disease, or coronary microvascular disease. You can have a 6 pack and still have plaque buildup due to eating habits over time due to the western diet that leans heavily toward fatty, saturated meats and dairy along with processed flours cooked in oil to form breads, cookies, chips, etc that we don't see with the naked eye and assume everything is ok. CT Scan which cost no more than $100 pretty much shows how much your arteries have aged. its the real deal more so than blood work especially when you get close to 50 years old.........your eating habits over time will reveal themselves clearly. I'm done with the fad diets.....i'm following what our parents always told us and what nobody ever associates as being unhealthy which is...eat your fruits and veggies. When you are feeling sick or want to go on a diet, nobody ever says.....i'm getting sick I need some steak and eggs with two slices of butter unless its a fad diet. "People want good news for bad habits"

Shrike
Posts: 1316
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Is that true about beans calories? Say for example kidney beans or chickpeas, that the stated calorie count is true but you won't absorb that much compared to other foods?

queloque67
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:25 am

by queloque67

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:43 pm
Is that true about beans calories? Say for example kidney beans or chickpeas, that the stated calorie count is true but you won't absorb that much compared to other foods?
Food with fiber in general. Not just beans its just that beans have a sh... load of fiber per serving. Fiber binds with things like fats from things like fried foods and you pass it out through your stool instead of absorbing unwanted nutrients. If you don't burn the fat you will store it and the body prefers converting carbs to glucose for energy first over fat because its more efficient unless you are doing the keto diet. Thats why pro cyclist don't take butter shots and take gel shots instead when riding. LOL
I tend to eat more servings of beans the higher my fat intake is for that day. Especially on weekends and especially if i'm sitting on my ass that day. I precook my beans in a pressure cooker that last me about a week. Eat them every day.
I'm a black beans type of guy but there are so many bean varieties with different tastes and texture....eat what you like. And if you like spicy...... sriracha makes it taste much better or sauerkraut.

i'm in my kitchen 75% of the time so i'm always experimenting and doing something with food or pulling espresso shots in the kitchen. :)

Shrike
Posts: 1316
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Love the idea of cooking a big batch and using them all week, going to look that up :P

queloque67
Posts: 89
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:25 am

by queloque67

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:10 pm
Love the idea of cooking a big batch and using them all week, going to look that up :P
Buy the Instant Pot pressure cooker. I cook a lot of stuff in there folk saving later. Potatoes, several heads of brocolli, cabbage, beans, sweet potatoes, sometimes rice but I have a rice cooker. its my work horse for the higher density foods.

I don't remember the last time I used my oven. LOL

I have a convection counter top oven
A rice cooker
Pressure cooker
and my stove.

mentok
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:58 am

by mentok

Shrike wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:25 am
mentok wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 7:51 pm

I would need to very consciously change my intake and my whole approach to eating. I imagine it would be quite a difficult change to manage.
Eating around 2930, and burning around 3700? (1700 from cycling and over 2k from everything else?). That's a significant deficit. I run 500 to 700 deficits too, and lose a ton of weight those weeks, but without the cycling, I doubt I could do it. Would be hard for me to eat sub 2000 calories in a day to lose weight if I wasn't exercising. However a whole food diet seems to be the way forward there. Your diet looks great by the way.
Thanks. I think I eat too many carrots and I just learn to live with carotenemia, a light orange tinge on my palms and in my sweat.

I think I have a pretty slow metabolism, or a more efficient gut or something, I don't know, but I work at a 1700 calorie BMR. I typically aim for ~500 deficit if i'm trying to get a couple of kgs off for an event or whatever. If I'm not trying to lose weight I still eat about the same, but I don't track over the weekend and I eat a lot more bananas, oats and dried fruit :thumbup:

AJS914
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Just an FYI regarding beans. They require proper cooking procedures. I give my black beans at least a 24 hour soak with baking soda. They get rinsed a few times. Then I boil them for 10 minutes and then follow by cooking them in the slow cooker for around 4 hours. Cooking them in vegetable or chicken broth results in my best beans.

Now, I know pressure cookers reduce cooking times and all that but anyone new to cooking beans from scratch should read up on the basics of proper cooking methods to remove anti-nutrients.

Also, canned beans are a processed food! Probably healthier than pizza and burgers but you want to get off the road of processed food and home made beans are so easy to make.

glepore
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Location: Virginia USA

by glepore

I totally agree that canned beans are a "processed" food, but if you want to get technical, cooking is processing. Its just a process that you know.
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by Weenie


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