Anyone lost a lot of weight, and kept it off?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

Moderator: Moderator Team

Post Reply
Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

iheartbianchi wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:47 am
Or saying that too much carbs somehow promotes body fat?
Strickly speaking, too many carbs DO promote bodyfat...as does too much protein or fat
Calories in vs calories out and all that :mrgreen:

And if you plan on sitting around while eating all those carbs, then we really need to talk about hormones, insulin sensitivity, etc
If youre exercising, then its all good (increased insulin sensitivity, nutrient partitioning, etc)

I think the biggest issue is that it is so damn easy to over eat processed carbs.
Keep them au natural, and you wont over eat, but very few of us do that all the time (myself included!...actually especially lately)

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

Number of Kenyans or Ethiopians who were ever affected by insulin sensitivity or hormones...none.

(Im trying to be funny so dont take that statement seriously, but you get the point).

I disagree with most of what Durianrider says on YouTube but one thing he has right is intermittent fasting. A lot of the Kenyans I mentioned before only eat one or two meals a day, while doing a high frequency and volume of low intensity exercise.

I read somewhere that once your body has spent years eating excess food (especially childhoold), your body changes permanently such that you develop an uncontrollable appetetite that demands you eat more than you need and thats why its so hard to keep weight off. And why its so critical to prevent childhood obesity because you pay for it for the rest of your life with irreversible appetite changes.
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy R 12spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



AJS914
Posts: 5397
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

iheartbianchi wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 11:46 am
Number of Kenyans or Ethiopians who were ever affected by insulin sensitivity or hormones...none.

AFAICT, the carbohydrate-insulin model of obesity has been debunked.

The difference IMO is that Kenyans or Ethiopians are probably not eating a western diet. It's been shown time and time again that as soon as a population adopts a western diet, they get fatter.

User avatar
Mr.Gib
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

There is a practicality issue with low or no-carb eating. Over the last few years, I have spent at least a couple of weeks each year burning close to 10,000 calories per day. I consumed as much calorically dense food as possible, meats, vegetable fats from many sources, etc., but there is no way you will get to 10,000 without hitting the pastry hard. And being on the road in various mountain ranges in Europe, you have to go with whats there to be had. I even ran into some trouble by trying to get by on plain water in my bottles. Had to load up the bottles with energy drink to keep from running a calorie deficit. And eating at home presented similar problems when the training volume was big.

These diets may be useful but reality interfers. When the hotel serves the desert from the night before for breakfast, you have to go for it. Seriously, how much charcuiterie can you eat at 7:00 AM. If you are in the Dolomites, better get used to apple streudel for breakfast, and there is this particular almond cake..... :D

Carbs make you fat? Don't think so. After two weeks of massive amounts of carbs and sugar. That thigh gap would make a teenage girl with an eating disorder proud:
Image
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:19 am
There is a practicality issue with low or no-carb eating. Over the last few years, I have spent at least a couple of weeks each year burning close to 10,000 calories per day. I consumed as much calorically dense food as possible, meats, vegetable fats from many sources, etc., but there is no way you will get to 10,000 without hitting the pastry hard. And being on the road in various mountain ranges in Europe, you have to go with whats there to be had. I even ran into some trouble by trying to get by on plain water in my bottles. Had to load up the bottles with energy drink to keep from running a calorie deficit. And eating at home presented similar problems when the training volume was big.

These diets may be useful but reality interfers. When the hotel serves the desert from the night before for breakfast, you have to go for it. Seriously, how much charcuiterie can you eat at 7:00 AM. If you are in the Dolomites, better get used to apple streudel for breakfast, and there is this particular almond cake..... :D
Believe it or not, I tell people to eat ice cream when they need to make up calorie deficits.

Ice cream in and of itself isn't that bad for you....just a lot of calories!

Anecdotally, I once lost 20kg or so when I was in the ICU recovering from an accident in my racing days. I was already at race weight so this was a dangerous level of weight loss. The doctors prescribed, believe it or not, Krispy Kreme and pizza. I would eat a whole pan and a dozen Krispy Kreme doughnuts everyday on top of the 3 regular hospital meals everyday it was epic!
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy R 12spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

User avatar
Conza
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:28 am
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Contact:

by Conza

Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:19 am
There is a practicality issue with low or no-carb eating. Over the last few years, I have spent at least a couple of weeks each year burning close to 10,000 calories per day. I consumed as much calorically dense food as possible, meats, vegetable fats from many sources, etc., but there is no way you will get to 10,000 without hitting the pastry hard.
:lol: Absolutely ill-informed. Because when you're fat adapted you get access to the 300,000 calories your body has stored as fat! :lol: you don't need to ingest those amounts. Calories in/out paradigm has long been shattered.

When you have carbs, you impede it's access to those stores.

Glycogen stores? 2k calories.

Hence why non-fat adapted endurance athletes need 30 farking gels, and those that are fat adapted need NONE!
It's all about the adventure :o .

iheartbianchi
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

Conza wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:09 am

:lol: Absolutely ill-informed. Because when you're fat adapted you get access to the 300,000 calories your body has stored as fat! :lol: you don't need to ingest those amounts. Calories in/out paradigm has long been shattered.

When you have carbs, you impede it's access to those stores.

Glycogen stores? 2k calories.

Hence why non-fat adapted endurance athletes need 30 farking gels, and those that are fat adapted need NONE!
I think it is inaccurate to say that calories in/out paradigm has been shattered. It's generally accurate and a good rule of thumb to follow, unless of course we are trying to rewrite the rules of thermodynamics.

There are training specific twists, which you correctly point out. If you need to consume a ton of gels on a ride, your body is not well adapted to aerobic exercise.
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy R 12spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Conza wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:09 am

Hence why non-fat adapted endurance athletes need 30 farking gels, and those that are fat adapted need NONE!

Don't forget to mention the non-fat adapted endurance athletes are faster. There's a reason why the human body's primary "fuel source" is glycogen. Think of it as a high-octane race fuel. It's actually more efficient as long as you can replenish it, so I don't see the problem with taking in 60g of carbohydrate every hour. I'll be faster while remaining lean af.

User avatar
Mr.Gib
Posts: 5577
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 4:12 pm
Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Conza wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:09 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:19 am
There is a practicality issue with low or no-carb eating. Over the last few years, I have spent at least a couple of weeks each year burning close to 10,000 calories per day. I consumed as much calorically dense food as possible, meats, vegetable fats from many sources, etc., but there is no way you will get to 10,000 without hitting the pastry hard.
:lol: Absolutely ill-informed. Because when you're fat adapted you get access to the 300,000 calories your body has stored as fat! :lol: you don't need to ingest those amounts. Calories in/out paradigm has long been shattered.

When you have carbs, you impede it's access to those stores.

Glycogen stores? 2k calories.

Hence why non-fat adapted endurance athletes need 30 farking gels, and those that are fat adapted need NONE!
You might be right but damn... I'm eating a fabulous almond croissant while you're eating the ass out of some animal. Too chewy for me :D
Last edited by Mr.Gib on Sat Apr 24, 2021 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

Andrew69
Posts: 593
Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:52 am
Location: ɹǝpunuʍop

by Andrew69

If youre doing something low intensity for a long period like an Ironman or other all day event, fat adadpted with minimal carbs is fine due to the low rate of glycogen delpetion at low intensities.
But at higher intensities, nope. Doesnt work

I feel better when my carbs are lower and fats higher, and I lift more weight, but on the bike at anything more than Z2-3, I fall into a heap

I would dearly love for HFLC to be the answer to cycling endurance, but it simply isnt

Edit: Being fat adapted and then introducing carbs race day doesnt work either as you simply dont have the adaptation to be able to use the carbs.
Lots of studies showing fat adapted isnt the best thing since sliced bread :mrgreen:

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Andrew69 wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:44 am

Edit: Being fat adapted and then introducing carbs race day doesnt work either as you simply dont have the adaptation to be able to use the carbs.
Lots of studies showing fat adapted isnt the best thing since sliced bread :mrgreen:

This can't be stressed enough. If you are constantly in ketosis, you lose the edge on your glycogen metabolism. I need the ability to do a hard 2min, 5min or even 20min effort at the end of a 3 hour road race.

User avatar
Conza
Posts: 244
Joined: Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:28 am
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Contact:

by Conza

iheartbianchi wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 5:37 am
Conza wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 2:09 am

:lol: Absolutely ill-informed. Because when you're fat adapted you get access to the 300,000 calories your body has stored as fat! :lol: you don't need to ingest those amounts. Calories in/out paradigm has long been shattered.

When you have carbs, you impede it's access to those stores.

Glycogen stores? 2k calories.

Hence why non-fat adapted endurance athletes need 30 farking gels, and those that are fat adapted need NONE!
I think it is inaccurate to say that calories in/out paradigm has been shattered. It's generally accurate and a good rule of thumb to follow, unless of course we are trying to rewrite the rules of thermodynamics.

There are training specific twists, which you correctly point out. If you need to consume a ton of gels on a ride, your body is not well adapted to aerobic exercise.
Oh no... it absolutely is shattered (to those paying attention to reality). The one compartment model is bunk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EttBlf0DGLc

TL;DR "... and notice here of course we're not breaking any laws of thermodynamics... what is important is the compartmentalisation of energy.. its not the total energy, but where it goes..."
Mr.Gib wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:19 am
You might be right but damn... I'm eating a fabulous almond croissant while your eating the ass out of some animal. Too chewy for me :D
Ribeyes, T-Bones, and Sirloin steaks... how's that 3 o'clock crash going for you? :lol:
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:03 am
Don't forget to mention the non-fat adapted endurance athletes are faster. There's a reason why the human body's primary "fuel source" is glycogen.
Not true.
Alcohol has sometimes been called the fourth “macronutrient” as it is metabolized completely differently than carbs, proteins or fats. Alcohol provides 7 calories per gram versus 4 calories per gram for both protein and carbohydrate and 9 for fat. If you give the body all four substances at once (Alcohol, carbs, protein and fat) it will preferentially burn off the alcohol first, then the carbs, then the fat and protein. Does this mean that the body “prefers” alcohol? While I’m sure that all you party animals are thinking “Yes! Yes!”, as Cirrhosis of the liver and alcohol related fatalities will attest, alcohol is toxic. (Now picture me setting the martini down like it’s radioactive – and my liver cheering.)

Since we can all agree that alcohol is toxic, we can safely assume that the body doesn’t burn it first because it prefers it. Rather, it burns it first because your body knows that it has to handle the most toxic substance first. Now, armed with that information, re-ask the question of whether the body burns carbs before proteins and fat because it’s preferred or because it’s toxic. If you’re unsure, to further help you decide, chew on this – alcohol is often called a “super carb”. Also consider that you NEED protein and fat to survive. But you do NOT need carbs to survive.
Mr.Gib wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:19 am
Think of it as a high-octane race fuel. It's actually more efficient as long as you can replenish it, so I don't see the problem with taking in 60g of carbohydrate every hour. I'll be faster while remaining lean af.
Sure. More oxidative stress. Which is why recovery is so much better/easier when burning fat as fuel (producing ketones). Why pro cycling teams (most of race is aerobic and actually are fairly well fat adapted), started looking to exogenous ketones (not better than body's process).

Efficient at fat burning & aerobic base -> burn more fat & far higher heart rates. Saving glycogen stores for anaerobic / v02 max efforts. Beyond that, process called gluconeogenesis allows for replenishing glycogen stores. More fat adapted/efficient you are at that, and also doing vo2 work - better it becomes.
Andrew69 wrote:
Sat Apr 03, 2021 4:44 am
If youre doing something low intensity for a long period like an Ironman or other all day event, fat adadpted with minimal carbs is fine due to the low rate of glycogen delpetion at low intensities.
But at higher intensities, nope. Doesnt work

I feel better when my carbs are lower and fats higher, and I lift more weight, but on the bike at anything more than Z2-3, I fall into a heap

I would dearly love for HFLC to be the answer to cycling endurance, but it simply isnt

Edit: Being fat adapted and then introducing carbs race day doesnt work either as you simply dont have the adaptation to be able to use the carbs.
Lots of studies showing fat adapted isnt the best thing since sliced bread :mrgreen:
I don't think you're fat adapted / fit enough is all. Were you doing interval work as well, for high intensity stuff? Still need to train that system.
It's all about the adventure :o .

TobinHatesYou
Posts: 12457
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

You know that comparing alcohol to carbohydrate is fallacy, yet you do it anyway. You also know that while fat is energy dense, it is also the slowest to convert back into usable energy.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Sat Apr 10, 2021 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

sychen
Posts: 1473
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:06 pm

by sychen

There are no absolutes... And doing one to excess will cost you elsewhere. If 100% fat adapted riding is so great then all the pro teams would be doing it. There is a reason racers are scoffing gels to a set schedule. Almost all pros racers will train fasted on some mornings to get toe fat burning adaptation but none does ketosis training exclusively.

If your aim is a transcontinental journey then a mostly fat adaptive metabolism will be advantageous.

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


by Weenie


Visit starbike.com Online Retailer for HighEnd cycling components
Great Prices ✓    Broad Selection ✓    Worldwide Delivery ✓

www.starbike.com



maxim809
Administrator
Posts: 853
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 am

by maxim809

Watch the video and it does not debunk CICO.

The speaker presents a cartoon analogy with how carbs/fats are stored like fridge vs freezer, which isn't a terrible analogy, albeit a simplified one.

The speaker omits the "Calories OUT" part of the CICO system, which is driven by the energy demands of the body. Be it sedentary or through exercise. He proposes that 'fats' are stored like it's 'in a freezer that's harder to get food out of' and leaves it at that as if it's only "Calories IN".

Also, he only touches on insulin, and does not go in-depth about the other hormones' role in the energy process... and the exceptions that exist with each individual's hormone levels.

So unfortunately, it is not a complete representation of the whole system. And for something as complicated as cell biology, First Principles thinking is the correct approach, as analogies cannot provide a faithful representation of what's actually happening in the complex system. The only drawback with First Principles, is it would lose 99% of the audience who does not have the domain-knowledge to follow. So if there is a need to use analogies like this speaker did, it would be good to provide faithful representations rather than omitting facts to push a narrative.


...

Anyway, I'm of the belief you need to train carbs + fats. Lol. The only time you should push pure fats is if you're into ultra endurance with no intensity, or if you have an unfortunate auto-immune disorder or fighting epilepsy, yet wish to pursue sports. For everyone else lucky enough: carbs make you fast.

The only thing I'm stuck on, is what should the training and nutrition plan look like for an athlete that was interested in getting the best balance between fat and carb adaptation? Should an athlete with all the time in the world and long-term gains in mind optimizing for a 3~4hr RR train for fat adaption for one period, then do so again with carbs in a focused but staggered approach? Or should they do that in reverse? If so, what's the best periodization timeline? Or should s/he just do both at the same time and forgo fasted riding?

Anyway, these are rabbit-hole questions I don't expect an answer for... because it just seems so obvious that it will vastly vary for each individual.
Last edited by maxim809 on Wed Apr 21, 2021 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply