Training for Massive Distance and Climbing

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

emotive wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:05 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:43 am

I am working on vibration damping solutions for my shoes (sorbothane insole material grafted to custom footbed) but I fear there will be no CCC in my future. Perhaps a different bike that takes 32 mm tires at 60 psi might do it. Curently on 28 mm at 80psi.

It's always the small things.
I also weigh 80kg. I run 60psi in my 28's, give it a try - so smooth.
Have you done serious decending at 60 psi? Have you had your bike up to 90 km/h with 60 psi? What happens when you lean the bike over and take a sweeping curve at 60 or 70 km/h and there are dips and wobbles in the road. When cornering at high speed I get tire distortion/deflection that upsets my line if there are any irregularities in the surface even at 80 psi. I also worry about stability under hard braking. My full weight on the front tire at 60 psi sounds risky if I were to hit anything. Might have to go tubeless which I like but not for travelling.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

by Weenie


emotive
Posts: 96
Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:40 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by emotive

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:43 pm

Have you done serious decending at 60 psi? Have you had your bike up to 90 km/h with 60 psi? What happens when you lean the bike over and take a sweeping curve at 60 or 70 km/h and there are dips and wobbles in the road. When cornering at high speed I get tire distortion/deflection that upsets my line if there are any irregularities in the surface even at 80 psi. I also worry about stability under hard braking. My full weight on the front tire at 60 psi sounds risky if I were to hit anything. Might have to go tubeless which I like but not for travelling.
Yes, I've descended several HC climbs on 28s @60psi over the last three years. I just had a look back, and I've not hit 90km'h but have hit 75km/h several times. I'm typically in the top 10% of strava results on descents, and top 3% on familiar segments, so i'm not babying the tyres.

Maybe try 75psi for a ride. then 70psi, then 65psi, to build confidence that they are safe. I've run mine as low as 45psi and not had any issues over the 17,000km since I upgraded from 25mm tyres.

Ed72
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Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2018 7:51 pm

by Ed72

I did TABR on 35 mm tires (38 mm actual width) at 45 psi front and 65 psi rear. What happens at 90 km/h cornering over bumpy roads. Nothing. Butter. Set it and forget it. What happens on 25 mm at 100 psi? Depends on the skill of the rider.

Tires are almost as contentious as training plans. A pretty famous endurance fellow was coaching me. His yardstick was being able to ride 8 hours at Tempo. If you can do that, you are ready.

zmjones
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by zmjones

i'm about 74kg and regularly hit 90-100k on 28s at 60psi. i think if i nailed a curb-like thing at that speed/weight it would kill me/the wheel but short of that it is chill. i'm more confident railing corners because the rattling from the shit pavement is decreased by the bigger and lower pressure tires.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Ed72 wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:34 am
I did TABR on 35 mm tires (38 mm actual width) at 45 psi front and 65 psi rear. What happens at 90 km/h cornering over bumpy roads. Nothing. Butter. Set it and forget it. What happens on 25 mm at 100 psi? Depends on the skill of the rider.

Tires are almost as contentious as training plans. A pretty famous endurance fellow was coaching me. His yardstick was being able to ride 8 hours at Tempo. If you can do that, you are ready.
TABR - nice!

Tons of good data on low pressures. Thanks people. I tested some 28mm tubeless at 60 psi on superwide 22mm internal rims - was perfectly stable - excellent in fact. My preferred bike seems to have room for Compass's 32mm offering on 17mm internal rims so I should give those a go as well. Might just do the trick.

8 hours at tempo no problem. Legs are good. Able to go just as hard at hour 8 as hour 1.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

thprice
Posts: 248
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 6:34 am

by thprice

Suggest preparation should be getting use to the hours in the saddle for 10 contiguous days.
It will be about getting your body use to it: mental strength at the start of each day, fatigued muscles, sleep, nutrition, avoiding health problems (butt, knees, etc), also a little about having a reliable bike and good clothing (layers).
Have a look at Audax / Randonneuring. They are in many countries (https://rusa.org/, www.aukweb.net/, etc)
They have rides typically from 50 km to 1200 km.
The longer rides would be good training, e.g. 1000km in 3 days.
They also have Super Randonnees, 600 km and 10,000m vert in 60 hrs (http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/4 ... 0List.html)
Suggest take only proven kit, nothing new.
Find out the weather where you are riding, it will likely differ significantly from your local weather. There is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing choices.

Enjoy the ride :beerchug:

Mr.Gib
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Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

Thanks for all this, but I am good on all the gear and logistics, and can handle the distance at the pace that is required. Over the last few years I have accumulated literally months of riding in serious terrain (Dolomites, Pyrenees, French/Swiss/Italian Alps). Nothing intimidates me.

All that's left is dealing with road vibration.

Tried Sorbothane insoles - good on the bigger hits but doesn't do much to the high frequency road buzz.

My only hope is to continue to experiment with tires. If I can fit Compass 32 mm extra lights and run them at 60 or maybe 55 psi, it might be good enough. Really reluctant to buy yet another bike for the sole purpose of accomodating even bigger tires. It would pretty much have to be custom. Must be light and stiff carbon with sloping top tube, 27.2 or smaller seat post, rim brake, and external cable routing with of course room for big tires. A bit crazy I know. I could be convinced to go titanium but that gets heavier. Normally I wouldn't care about an extra pound but for climbing 5000 meters per day....
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

emotive
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Joined: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:40 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by emotive

Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:33 am

My only hope is to continue to experiment with tires.
Did you try dropping the pressure in your 28mm tyres?

That's the immediate and free solution.
If I can fit Compass 32 mm extra lights and run them at 60 or maybe 55 psi, it might be good enough.
I run Compass 35mm extralight tyres on my gravel bike at 40psi. If I were running the 32 EL's, I'd use about 45 to 50psi. Running super supple 32's at 55 to 60psi on 32's would be overinflated, and not offer much comfort over your 28's at 80psi, or 25's at 100psi.

Mr.Gib
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Location: eh?

by Mr.Gib

emotive wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:26 am
Mr.Gib wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 5:33 am

My only hope is to continue to experiment with tires.
Did you try dropping the pressure in your 28mm tyres?

That's the immediate and free solution.
If I can fit Compass 32 mm extra lights and run them at 60 or maybe 55 psi, it might be good enough.
I run Compass 35mm extralight tyres on my gravel bike at 40psi. If I were running the 32 EL's, I'd use about 45 to 50psi. Running super supple 32's at 55 to 60psi on 32's would be overinflated, and not offer much comfort over your 28's at 80psi, or 25's at 100psi.
I did an experiment with 28 mm tubeless on wide (22 mm internal) rims at 60 psi. Excellent on really rough stuff but still transmitted a fair bit of road buzz on a pebbly chip seal type surface. Perhaps due to the type of tire - Mavic Yksion Pro UST. Tried at 50 psi as well but that felt too soft.

The Mavics are suprisingly great tires but perhaps the greater suppleness of "open tubular" or high thread count type tires might be better for my situation hence my interest in Compass.

32 mm at 45 to 50 psi? That sounds a bit low but I won't know until I try.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

emotive
Posts: 96
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

by emotive

Mr.Gib wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:04 am

I did an experiment with 28 mm tubeless on wide (22 mm internal) rims at 60 psi. Excellent on really rough stuff but still transmitted a fair bit of road buzz on a pebbly chip seal type surface. Perhaps due to the type of tire - Mavic Yksion Pro UST.
Yes, tubeless wheels have thicker sidewalls, but this is typically compensated for by not having a tube.

I'm running my Compass 28mm on 22C wheels, they measure 30.5mm wide, so there is extra volume from the wider wheels. Before that I was running GP4000II 28mm on 17C wheels, they measured 32mm wide. I'd expect Compass 28mm tyres on 17C rim would measure 28mm wide, and the Compass 32mm would measure 32mm wide
Tried at 50 psi as well but that felt too soft.
Did it felt less connected?
Did it feel slower?
Did it feel less road vibe?

A lower pressure will feel less connected to the road. The turn-in is not as crisp, that's the price you pay for the smoother ride. It will also feel slower because you arent feeling every bump in the raod, but segment times will often show you aren't any slower, just more comfortable.
The Mavics are suprisingly great tires but perhaps the greater suppleness of "open tubular" or high thread count type tires might be better for my situation hence my interest in Compass.
I think an open tubular (Compass or otherwise) with a latex tube, and the right tyre pressure will yield the improved comfort you are looking for. Quality tyres are the cheapest and fastest upgrade anyone can make to their bike.
32 mm at 45 to 50 psi? That sounds a bit low but I won't know until I try.
I have run my 28s as low as 40psi. At that pressure they are noticeable slower rolling, but do provide more comfort on broken tarmac and dirt roads. For bumpy routes I now have a gravel bike with bigger tyres and more comfort, but if I only had one bike, I'd be adjusting the pressure to suit the quality of the route and the expected pace. On recovery days, and rough roads, I'd take the comfort of lower pressures. On high quality roads, and group rides, I'd up the pressure for a bit more pace, and sacrifice some comfort.

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

Less road vibe?
Slower?

Thats the thing, the level of road buzz didn't improve at 50 psi which is what leads me to believe the type of tire is a factor. I also noticed what I felt was too much tire distortion and compression when I was out of the saddle.

As for feeling slower I would say yes but that is not the decision maker for me.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

mattr
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Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

TBH, all the things you've tried so far are best as fixes for low frequency vibration. High frequency will need increased mass/mass dampers.

I've never worked with damping HF vibrations on a bike, so no idea what sort of magnitude we are looking at. I doubt sticking wheel weights to the back of your crank will work........

jlok
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Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

If you want 50psi without the feeling of tire squirm you will need even wider rim like the SES 4.5 AR. The 25mm hookless rim profile will allow maximum volume to support the side walls at 50psi.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 / BMC TM02 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Mr.Gib
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by Mr.Gib

jlok wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:30 am
If you want 50psi without the feeling of tire squirm you will need even wider rim like the SES 4.5 AR. The 25mm hookless rim profile will allow maximum volume to support the side walls at 50psi.
I did a little test today with 28 mm Corsa G's on rims with a 22 mm internal width. At 60 PSI the rear was a tiny bit too soft, but only if I was sitting upright. It got a little bit bouncy in certain situations, cadence changes, power changes. Almost perfect in a more aero position. The front was good at 60 psi. The tire measured almost 31 mm in this setup. Didn't make a damn difference as far as road buzz though. In fact those tires provided incredible road feedback. Cornering was insanely grippy. I should report this in an Everything Wheels thread.
wheelsONfire wrote: When we ride disc brakes the whole deal of braking is just like a leaving a fart. It happens and then it's over. Nothing planned and nothing to get nervous for.

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