Icarus Documentary

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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ultyguy
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by ultyguy

Image

That’s me in the yellow jersey at the HR 2014 in the trailer. Next image was LA going up Alpe d’Huez Image

I’m a solid rider but far from amazing (definitely ‘average’ in the ‘power profiles’ thread Image) and definitely no doper. Plenty of guys I know who don’t dope are stronger than me and have finished top 5-10 in various HR and also won stages.

2014 they ran a prologue of 9km on the lake here in Geneva which was pan flat. Seeing as how all the strongest riders (Pouly etc) are about 10kg less than me, it wasn’t ridiculous to win it (400w for 11 min or so).

I actually chatted to Fogel at the bottom of the Roseland for a minute before the attacks started again.

The next year I finished 5th on the first stage. First climb we did 5w/kg for 25 min and that shed the group down to 12 or so and after next climb ridden slower, around 8 left. Everyone was hurting even the guy who ended up winning it who I know.

Point is I think it’s a big exaggerated as far as amateur doping in the HR. Italy on the other hand, absolutely wild fukking west.


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bilwit
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by bilwit

ultyguy wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:04 pm
Point is I think it’s a big exaggerated as far as amateur doping in the HR. Italy on the other hand, absolutely wild fukking west.
I think the point was to show that you could get away with doping no matter what, given the resources available to anyone willing to risk it--whether that be dodgy doctors over Skype or completely backed by the State, from high profile amateur events like HR to the highest level in the Olympics.

AJS914
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by AJS914

Plus, it's hard to believe that ex-doping pros don't dope during HT when there aren't controls.

ultyguy
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by ultyguy

Pouly, who knows. He did insinuate in the LA interview a bit about the state of it in general. Heck, who knows.


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silvalis
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by silvalis

Nikolai Razouvaev wrote an op ed in regards to Icarus doco
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/03/op-ed-r ... ue-nation/
Chasse patate

ultyguy
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by ultyguy

Perish the thought, logical thinking. Completely lost in these times.


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bilwit
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by bilwit

silvalis wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:51 pm
Nikolai Razouvaev wrote an op ed in regards to Icarus doco
https://cyclingtips.com/2018/03/op-ed-r ... ue-nation/
Seems kind of petty. Of course you can't say every Russian professional athlete ever is a doper, I don't think that was the point of the documentary and anyone who only gets that out of the film is missing the point, which is that doping is easy to get away with. At any level. Period.

Russia is just an example. They were only busted because they wanted to dope DURING the Olympics where it was convenient for them since they were hosting. The bigger issue is that if they took Rodchenkov's advice to begin with--which I'm sure every major country already employs--they would have never been caught (the advice being to just dope throughout all the training and leadup and then stop weeks before the events where the drugs were already out of their system). Fogel wasn't targetting Russia, he was just fortunate enough to stumble into that whole affair and report on it.

Shrike
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by Shrike

bilwit, the fact that you found his article petty simply means that the narrative is normative for you. You're so used to it that when it's blazingly obvious, you don't see any issue with it. You don't even see that it's there.

bilwit
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by bilwit

Shrike wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:39 am
bilwit, the fact that you found his article petty simply means that the narrative is normative for you. You're so used to it that when it's blazingly obvious, you don't see any issue with it. You don't even see that it's there.
Maybe fair, I can definitely see how casual viewers might come away from the documentary with "oh those cheating Russians.." but I don't think that was the intent or purpose of the film or its maker. I think if you watch it and discard any personal bias, you should come away questioning ANY professional athlete, regardless of nationality. That in itself is a harsh reality for any clean athlete to bare that responsibility but that's the current state we live in.

I recognize that Fogel saying "there has NEVER been antidoping in Russia" is not fair for every Russian athlete, but I just don't see the film--overall-- taking a "holier than thou" stance against any nation specifically even if the subject matter happened to be about the Russian Olympics. Whether or not people get "the Russian Boogeyman" out of the film is one thing (I'm sure there are people that do) but it's hard for me to see that as the intent. At the very least, the fact that this has to be argued does prove that the film didn't do a good enough job clarifying it's own message.

stuka666
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by stuka666

Any similar movie/documentary about doping available?

Thanks.

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigger,_Stronger,_Faster*

It's not cycling specific, but I thought it was very well done although ignored at the time, because, you know "AMERICA! NUMBER ONE!" or whatever bs mindset was heavily indocorinated at the time. This was before Lance Armstrong's revelations, when doping was still being pushed 'under the rug' so to speak. It also brought up associations with two of America's favorite obsessions in identity: entertainment/scripted wrestling and american football. So, naturally, it was mostly ignored at the time of release.

A criticism I have of the film is that it bluffs over the actual, proven and dangerous health effects of steroid usage. I believe this was mostly because the protagonist's own siblings are steroid users and thus made it easier for him to draw soft lines around real issues because of some subconcious denial of loss in his own family.
Exp001 || Other projects in the works.

ultyguy
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by ultyguy

And yes, I did just win an Oscar for my role in Icarus


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Sweetbabyj45
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by Sweetbabyj45

stuka666 wrote:Any similar movie/documentary about doping available?

Thanks.
"Stop at Nothing" is a documentary specific to Lance Armstrong and doping which came out in 2014. I haven't seen it but it's on my list.

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CrankAddictsRich
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by CrankAddictsRich

I watched this movie back in the summer time when it came out. I was very impressed with it and I really liked the fact that it ended up going in a totally different direction that I was expecting. The thing that I'm wondering... after Fogel races the HR, the second time, when he was doped... he comes back to Radchenkov (sp) and Radchenkov says something along the lines of, "don't worry, now we know how your body reacts and what works, its like we've gone from the lobby ot the first floor, there are many more floors we can go to." It made it sound as if he now had a baseline data set f how Fogel reacted to the oping and could improve/adjust the program.... unfortunately, that never happened because the whistle-blower aspect blew up.
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mvcap
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by mvcap

CrankAddictsRich wrote:I watched this movie back in the summer time when it came out. I was very impressed with it and I really liked the fact that it ended up going in a totally different direction that I was expecting. The thing that I'm wondering... after Fogel races the HR, the second time, when he was doped... he comes back to Radchenkov (sp) and Radchenkov says something along the lines of, "don't worry, now we know how your body reacts and what works, its like we've gone from the lobby ot the first floor, there are many more floors we can go to." It made it sound as if he now had a baseline data set f how Fogel reacted to the oping and could improve/adjust the program.... unfortunately, that never happened because the whistle-blower aspect blew up.
Great point. Was amazing how Fogel added 100 watts vs prior year riding clean

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