Anyone used Xert?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

Moderator: Moderator Team

Shrike
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

jlok wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 5:50 am
Correct, it won't "micro" plan ahead your workout down to day basis. Instead, whenever you are free to work you just work according to the suggestion by XATA at that moment.

Xert is actually favoring Polarized Training based on LT1 (LTP in Xert's regard) and LT2 (TP in Xert's regard). If you set your target event requirement (in terms of Athelet Type) as Triathlete, you will be suggested loads of LTP based workouts. Even when you choose something higher up like Pursuiter, you will also get LTP targeted workout if you are in the Base Phase of the Plan.

I think their blogs explain much much better and in detail, go figure.
http://baronbiosys.com/sweet-spot-thres ... e-numbers/
Really glad you posted that link. I ruined my first two workouts then as I thought the numbers were too low to have a decent effect. It was giving me lower numbers than what I'm used to coming off the back of TrainerRoad's Sweetspot Base plan so I did my intervals 20 to 30 watts higher instead (and that still didn't feel so stressful).

Understand now what Xert is doing is why and will behave. TrainerRoad's SweetSpot base plan (high) wasn't really much of a success for me unfortunately. Ended up with loads of failed workouts. Just couldn't recover in time. Though I was dieting hard so I blamed that, but it seems it's more complicated. Either way, I seem to have kept most of my FTP, but have lost something. High end power has gone and I feel like my ability to suffer and stay there at FTP and above has gone too.

Will give Xert a proper shot and see how polarized works for us (missus is starting it too). The hours will be much longer on polariser training I guess though. Fine as it's summer but come winter here.. that would be a significant problem.

calleking
Posts: 123
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:20 pm

by calleking

I think it's great. Tried a number of platforms but always stayed loyal to Golden Cheetah. I still use it for analyzing the rides since it's way better than Xert but for training and seeing improvements I think Xert have really nailed it. I'm involved in some IT projects where Machine Learning has been used and I have confidence in the way Xert predicts fitness signatures and suggests workouts over time. It can always be tweaked but they seem to have got most of the predictions right. Ultimately how the athlete feels from day to day is one variable that isn't taken into consideration in Xert (I think they have wellness data and more subjective inputs in the scope for the platform). If you're self-coached and quite objective with how you feel Xerts guidance on when to train and when to rest is great imo.

They have pretty good blog posts like mentioned here above and their Forum on both Xertonline and Xert User group on Facebook has lots of questions being answered. Armando Mastracci spends a great amount of time answering questions every day which is a big plus. There's also the glossary section with explanations of terms which is handy.
Aeroad CF SLX w. ENVE SES 4.5

by Weenie


dominikk
Posts: 110
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:47 am

by dominikk

+1
Riding Paniagua - The Future of cycling!

jlok
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Xert works great for W' prediction (HIE in their term). Some also use the LTP target to train for endurance events.

I use Xert for fitness management and GC for ride analysis.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

mrfish
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland

by mrfish

Good posts here as ever on WW. I tried the Xert watch FTP predictor app and found that it's pretty good. I'm going to try it for a while and if that works buy a trainer to continue over the winter.

Can anyone shed any light on a couple of questions:
1. What Xert does if you're training for a half IM or similar long distance cycling event? Previously my coach would rarely if ever prescribe hard cycling workouts as part of IM training, so does Xert prescribe LSD plus intervals? Or does it set monthly interval to exhaustion sessions so that it gets updates on FTP even if most training is LSD?

2. How does Xert distinguish between HIE and FTP? From a mathematical point of view, I don't understand how a certain volume of work done can determine two variables. If work is the only input, then mathematically you get solution pairs of HIE and FTP numbers, i.e. a line not a point. Any idea what additional information such as recovery rate it uses to get around this?

3. What additional assumptions are bundled in here? Does this matter? For example, if I understand correctly the downward curve of the HIE line is set by the machine, based on average physiological parameters. So is there an error if you're actually more greyhound than human, or is this compensated for by the machine just estimating a higher HIE?

4. What if I am doing a triathlon and go running 3x a week? Is it possible to use Xert's functions for this as well, or does it screw up the workout selector and other functions?

Shrike
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Try asking those here:

https://www.xertonline.com/forum

I asked Armando some stuff last week and he replied within a day.

jlok
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Xert will give you workouts focusing your required event type. So if you train for tri it will provide LTP focused workouts. You are right about the signature breakthrough. You will need to switch to No Decay if you train for anything below TP.

I am not able to answer HIE FTP but you can check their blogs about how they come up with the Fitness Signature idea. I think it's almost the same as Extended CP used by GC so you may also check the science section at goldencheetah.

Since No2 is assumed established with a model that works, the system just keep testing its prediction against your activities. If that fail your signature will be updated.

Right now I think they can't work out the effect of cross training.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

robertbb
Posts: 476
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:35 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

by robertbb

I'm not sold on Xert for sustained power type events like hill climbs and fondo's. The "no decay" method will freeze the signature so the XATA (Adaptive Training Adviser) doesn't lead you up the wrong path... but the way the whole thing's set up is around maximal efforts (aka: "breakthrough's") which then dictate further training. If you don't generate maximal efforts (i.e. you train around lactate threshold) the whole premise of using HIE (similar to W' in the literature) is kind of lost on this kind of rider, who doesn't need to respond to attacks, etc.
It's ALL about the bike.

RobertBB's CyclePlanner Spreadsheet:
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/foru ... 8&t=152263

jlok
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

That No Decay method actually response to subthreashold trainings and you will see your TP rise as you train, assume that you have supplied enough past records.

That maximal effort "testing" is actually necessary for the system to find failure point in your activity to see if the signature has to be adjusted or not. Think regular FTP testing but the maximal effort "testing" is much "easier" to do. You may just join a much faster group ride and hang on as much as you could.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Shrike
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

So if I want to get the best from Xert, I should be testing myself regularly through maximal efforts?

What sort of efforts would you recommend and how often. All types? 5 sec, 1 min, 20min, 1 hour etc?

jlok
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

For Base Period with No Decay I don’t bother to test, just train according to the suggested workout and it’s usually target around LTP.

Depends on your selected Athelete Type (target event power requirement really), the workouts in Build Period will start to target power above TP. That’s when you want to switch to Original decay method and carry out some “test”.

Normally I’d just do hard group rides every fortnight and make sure I tried my best to hang on with a really fast group, or attack until I flag. Otherwise I will go for my favourite climb. I look at Xert’s ConnectIQ datafield on my Edge 1030 to judge how much I need to hang on to exhaust my HIE and have a Fitness Breakthrough. It’s more “fun” than a classic 20min effort and more flexible.

Again, if you feed enough data your signature will be good enough for the Xert interval workouts. It’s very good for a self-coached rider.

I’d suggest paying for a month as trial. Best upgrade after you achieve 5kg ww goal.
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Shrike
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Hmm alright that makes sense thanks. Have 3 weeks left on trial to decide to stick with it or go with something else. I see Zwift put in a big update for training last week. And has some very attractive features planned.

What about you personally. How long does it take you to get 'very fresh' on your planner?

If I input no workouts, it takes me 12 whole days from Sunday to go green. Is that normal, or should I be reading something into that?

(My load shows as 4 stars)

jlok
Posts: 638
Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2015 3:30 am

by jlok

Yes it takes a while to go green star, and if that happens that means I'm injured or too lazy... or trying to taper.

I think these kinds of fitness platform boils down to how accurately the workout adapts to you. Xert is doing well in that regard.

btw 4 stars is awesome. I got two only and could only dream about the amount of time you spend to 4 stars. keep it up and upper!
Giant Propel Advanced SL Disc 1 < Propel Adv < TCR Adv SL Disc < KTM Revelator Sky < CAAD 12 Disc < Domane S Disc < Alize < CAAD 10

Shrike
Posts: 1288
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:08 pm

by Shrike

Aha so it's okay to be virtually always on yellow/blue :D

Was trying to work out if I needed to take time off the bike to reset it. Yes, weather in UK has been brilliant all May. Been getting in some big long rides back to back, not often you can do that here.. fingers crossed it stays that way!

mrfish
Posts: 1651
Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2007 12:49 pm
Location: Near Horgen, Switzerland

by mrfish

Thanks for the replies. I've been playing more on Xert and I think it's useful enough to pay for it, after all $100 doesn't get you far in faster bike components, so the value is large.

Regarding using it for multisports, I was thinking you could manually enter XSS scores for other workouts and then track form, if not the other workouts' effect. That would work fine for swimming for me, as everything in the pool works fine with just RPE / distance / time. For running not so good though. But then I saw someon's blog where they explained that with a stryd PM, one could run two Xert accounts, one of running power and one for cycling power, then upload the cycling activities to the running account as XSS without power data and vice versa, so that the power signature of each sport is preserved, yet each account includes the effect of both sports' training. I don't think many people will bother with this as it's too complex, so until Xert modifies their platform to calculate two power signatures from different sports I can't see many adopters. Also funamentally Xert is about above-threshold work, which is definitely not the focus for triathlons, so I don't see much market.

Also the concept of aggregating TSS across different sports is not as simple as it sounds. My experience is that TSS differs across sports: 100 TSS from a 1h all-out cycling time trial is much more stress than 100TSS from a 2h bike ride. Similarly it's not the same as 100TSS from running as I'd barely be able to walk after that.

by Weenie


Post Reply