Help needed: Looking ahead to my winter indoor training.

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Rubik
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Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:59 pm

by Rubik

53x12 wrote:
Rubik wrote:
Kurets wrote:I'm actually considering replacing my turbo trainer, going from a "Smart" controllable one to a dumb one. Main reason for not going smart trainer again is that I realized that I don't really find the slope simulation etc. of a smart trainer very useful. Similarily, I can't stand ERG mode.
You should try to determine if the same applies to you. Would be a waste of money if it did.


Yikes! That has me pause for a bit!



https://youtu.be/LbeliW8uObk


Thanks! Perfect video.
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53x12
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by 53x12

Rubik wrote:
53x12 wrote:
Rubik wrote:
Kurets wrote:I'm actually considering replacing my turbo trainer, going from a "Smart" controllable one to a dumb one. Main reason for not going smart trainer again is that I realized that I don't really find the slope simulation etc. of a smart trainer very useful. Similarily, I can't stand ERG mode.
You should try to determine if the same applies to you. Would be a waste of money if it did.


Yikes! That has me pause for a bit!



https://youtu.be/LbeliW8uObk


Thanks! Perfect video.


You're welcome. I found that video insightful as well. Actually his whole channel is really good from the ones I have watched. Good guy too.
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."

3Pio
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

Kurets wrote:To answer your questions, I have a Tacx Vortex Smart now and I used it extensively with Zwift and on its own the last two winters.
The reasons why I don't think ERG or slope simulation is useful is that I find it distracta from the training I try to do. For me, Zwift is just a way of getting some visual distraction. Having to shift all the time to maintain cadence does not improve the experience IMO. ERG mode on the other hand is annoying as I do think that the trainer should not mess with your cadence, and you should be in charge of holding the power prescribed in the interval. Partially as it is a mental thing too, holding a steady power for TTs and the like.
But! This is all in the frame of a structured training plan, not for general excersise. If that is your goal, then go ahead and choose what seems the most fun instead.



Thanks a lot for ur honest and non biased opinion...Seem that Kurt Kinetic Road Machine is not that bad buy in 2017.

Another thing that put me off smart trainer is the reliability issues i can see on many models.. Seem that they all offer as much "gadget options" but lacking the primary quality function... And also i have feeling that many positive reviews on popular sites are just payed reviews (try to google Kick Snap reviews on popular sites, then real world experiencese from real users for example..)

3Pio
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

sanrensho wrote:I also find it hard to adapt to Erg mode (on a Powerbeam Pro), it feels like riding in mud.

The Kurt Road Machine is a bit too easy to spin, so I recently picked up a Lemond Revolution (direct drive "dumb" trainer) and will be using that as my main trainer this winter. The Lemond is widely praised for its road feel, but is loud.


U found Road Machine too easy to spin even in big gears? What about noise of Road Machine and the whole feeling and quality?

sanrensho
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:54 pm

by sanrensho

3Pio wrote:U found Road Machine too easy to spin even in big gears? What about noise of Road Machine and the whole feeling and quality?


Build quality is 10/10, it's a solid and flawless machine that works every time. Quiet (but not as quiet as my old Minoura HyperMag). Road feel is good (but not as good as the Lemond), has a bit of a spin bike feel in that it feels easy to keep momentum once you get up to speed.

I don't have a powermeter, but I found that virtual power calculations for the KK were way too high in the apps I was using (PerfPro and VirtualTraining). Calculated power was at least 20-30 watts too high. I know it was inaccurate because my calculated wattage is significantly lower on three subsequent trainers (two smart trainers + Lemond). My FTP is very modest btw, in the low 200s.

3Pio
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

AJS914 wrote:The Kurt Rock and Roll looks hard on the frame, the way it bobs up and down. I read reviews of it and the side to side motion doesn't sound like it does anything for your training once you get over the novelty of it.

I bought a Vortex Smart because it seemed like the cheapest reasonable smart trainer option last winter. $350 from a web shop in Germany (bike-discount.de). Everything close in ability was over $500 last year. I would have preferred a Kickr because, I hear, they are easier to get repaired if you live in the US but even the Kickr Snap was $600 last winter.

I'm pretty happy with the Vortex Smart. I'm sure I'd prefer a direct drive trainer but I didn't want to plunk down $1000.


Not planing to get Rock And Roll version, just the regular RoadMachine with Inride Meter Included.

I can see that it will cost me 260 EUR without front Tire Block, or 290 with tire block (less than i thought as first).

As i can see the noise is much less with specific trainer tire, maybe instead of tire block i'll get the specific trainer tire + matt.

After reading few posts here, i realized that is better dumb high quality trainer + power meter (in the future, i dont have it now), then smart trainer with low quality and a lot of potential issues.

And the trend is every few months new smart trainer, so maybe if i found out that im riding a lot indoors, i'll get some DirectDrive next season.

Also wondering should i go for Kinetic Smart Control trainer, since it have heavier flywheel and better road feel and also some smart features added, but find out that it's not working properly, so seem that the best will be T-2700 (InRide module), or even T-2200 (not having InRide and cheaper like 40 eur)

And thanks a lot to @ Kurets and @sanrensho for their opionion about smart trainers.

And please be free to comment my decision of ordering Kinetic Road Machine T-2700 insted something else. Probably ill order it by the end of the week.

AJS914
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I looked at the RoadMachine with the inRide module last year but I took it off my list because it was bluetooth only.

I wanted all my data, even stationary rides, to go into Strava. Plus, I have a duplicate of everything in Garmin Connect so ideally I wanted my trainer sessions to record on my Garmin 510 so I needed an Ant+ trainer.

The way I do it is as follows:

Garmin 510 records power/cadence/speed/distance from the Tacx trainer (Ant+) just as if I'm riding outside.

I control the trainer with my iPhone (connected by bluetooth).

Just like when I ride outside, rides are automatically uploaded to Garmin Connect which syncs with Strava. I also turn GPS off on the 510 so the ride gets correctly recorded as a trainer/indoor ride.

Per DCRainmaker's recommendations, I wanted a trainer that supported ANT+ FE-C and Bluetooth so that my trainer would work with any device or software going forward.

3Pio
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

AJS914 wrote:I looked at the RoadMachine with the inRide module last year but I took it off my list because it was bluetooth only.

I wanted all my data, even stationary rides, to go into Strava. Plus, I have a duplicate of everything in Garmin Connect so ideally I wanted my trainer sessions to record on my Garmin 510 so I needed an Ant+ trainer.

The way I do it is as follows:

Garmin 510 records power/cadence/speed/distance from the Tacx trainer (Ant+) just as if I'm riding outside.

I control the trainer with my iPhone (connected by bluetooth).

Just like when I ride outside, rides are automatically uploaded to Garmin Connect which syncs with Strava. I also turn GPS off on the 510 so the ride gets correctly recorded as a trainer/indoor ride.

Per DCRainmaker's recommendations, I wanted a trainer that supported ANT+ FE-C and Bluetooth so that my trainer would work with any device or software going forward.


I want the same.. And u dont need smart ANT + trainer to be able to have ur rides on strava and garmin connect.

Just use the same way and same sensors as u do in outdoor riding (u mentioned that u have Garmin 510). Save ur ride, and upload to strava.

I wanted to use the Zwift or some other softwares, and first i thought that Smart Trainer would be essential for that.

But i found out that ZWIFT (i used that so i know), and probably other programs doing the same, use virtual power for different type of trainers including Road Machine.

Inride module will be a bit more detailed then Virtual power, and nothing essential, but since is only 25-30 eur more expensive then Non InRide version, i'll purchase Inride.

To be able to connect to Zwift using my Garming sensors (HR, SPEED, Cadence) i bought ANT+ stick for the computer and have my speed, cadence, hr and virtual power in Zwift. It will be much better if i have power meter to have more detailed info on power, but for now i'll do it like this.


U need smart trainer only if u want simulation of slopes and ERG mode.

I must admit that i believe it that is essential against beeing bored, but as much i read it and tried to realize what i really need and what is marketing, at the end (with help from the guys in this thread), i decided to go dumb trainer with highest mechanical quality, and better to spend money in power meter then in smart trainer (with a lot of potential reliability problems).

I allready have dumb old ELITE Trainer and i ride that way using my Garmin Senors and uploading everything to Garming Connect + Strava.

Im purchasing new Road Machine because of few reasons:

- Elite Trainer is not compatible with my Colnago C60

- I tried a little bit Road Machine and feel much smoother then Elite i have.

- I need trainer not just for training, but sometimes to adjust my position, or to work something on the bike, and im too lazy to get the wheel off to put it on the stand, or i need to work on bike beeing level (i have Feedback sport stand).

And also DC Rainmaker sometimes is lost in all details, but not a word about essential things and their primary function. Check the Assioma Favero review, there is almost no Info At all how they work in their Primary Function, Pedals.. Because u can have the best PowerMeter metrics, but if there is compromise in their first primary function then the point is missed.

Also check Wahoo Kickr Snap review.. Then google for how many peoples have issues and problems. This kind of reviews are amazing, and i like to read them a lot. But in many cases are sometimes payed by manufacturers.. That why i prefer to read them, but to get details on forums like this, where people actually share their experience and enthusiasm.

AJS914
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Just use the same way and same sensors as u do in outdoor riding (u mentioned that u have Garmin 510). Save ur ride, and upload to strava.


That doesn't work for me. I use no external sensors with my 510 other than HR. I also wanted to record power from the trainer thus I bought a smart trainer.

I'm going to give Zwift a go this winter as well so I wanted a smart trainer that could be controlled by the game.

3Pio
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

AJS914 wrote:
Just use the same way and same sensors as u do in outdoor riding (u mentioned that u have Garmin 510). Save ur ride, and upload to strava.


That doesn't work for me. I use no external sensors with my 510 other than HR. I also wanted to record power from the trainer thus I bought a smart trainer.

I'm going to give Zwift a go this winter as well so I wanted a smart trainer that could be controlled by the game.


I guess u get speed/distance based on GPS from 510. I suggest u to get speed sensor since it's much better then just based on GPS, specially when u ride under the tree's or maybe tunnel, or bad weather.

And since u dont have cadence sensor i guess u have power meter? But if u have power meter that u dont need smart trainer for power measurement.

If u dont have how u got ur cadence data? I like to analyze data after the ride (and during the ride), so cadence is important for me. Specially if u use Stravistix Strava Plugin for Chrome (if u dont, install it.. If u like analyzing after the ride u gonna like it).

So if u dont have cadence sensor i also suggest to get one, since it's not expensive and its valuable data. So that way u wont need ANT+ Smart trainer for this, and also u'll have the same data riding outside.

But if Zwift trainer control make u riding more, then that is enough big reason to get smart trainer. So please share ur experience after few weeks of riding. Im also wondering my self if im going wrong buying a dumb trainer in 2017.

sanrensho
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:54 pm

by sanrensho

3Pio wrote: Im also wondering my self if im going wrong buying a dumb trainer in 2017.


Here's a balanced article on the pros and cons of Erg mode.

https://thesufferfest.com/blogs/training-resources/to-erg-or-not-to-erg-making-the-most-of-your-smart-trainers-erg-mode

3Pio
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

sanrensho wrote:
3Pio wrote: Im also wondering my self if im going wrong buying a dumb trainer in 2017.


Here's a balanced article on the pros and cons of Erg mode.

https://thesufferfest.com/blogs/training-resources/to-erg-or-not-to-erg-making-the-most-of-your-smart-trainers-erg-mode


Nice write up and made me search again to Smart :) (Kinetic Smart Control or Kickr Snap or Elite Rampa..). But as soon i read all the problems users have with all of them, definetely will go dumb :)

Thanks for this link

BTW, is it worth to pay extra 20 eur for Front Tire Block? (or 30 for Kinetic Rotation block) Or just to go with old phonebook?

And same question about specific trainer matt? Or to buy cheap SuperMarket training matt?

sanrensho
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:54 pm

by sanrensho

3Pio wrote:BTW, is it worth to pay extra 20 eur for Front Tire Block? (or 30 for Kinetic Rotation block) Or just to go with old phonebook?

And same question about specific trainer matt? Or to buy cheap SuperMarket training matt?


I would go for the riser ring. I've used both phone book and riser block, and think the riser ring looks more stable and versatile (varying heights).

For mat, I just use cheap interlocking square foam mats.

AJS914
Posts: 2005
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Yes, on riser block. I ride the trainer 100% of the time on the riser block because it's more comfortable.

I never felt the need for a speed sensor on my Garmin. I've never had a problem with drop outs, trees, or tunnels. I do have a Garmin cadence sensor. When I ride the trainer though I get speed and cadence from the trainer though I admit that the trainer's cadence isn't very accurate. I haven't figured out how to get power and speed from the trainer and cadence from the Garmin sensor.

You know, if you just want a dumb trainer, find a used one. They are so cheap now that everybody is upgrading.

3Pio
Posts: 866
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:13 pm

by 3Pio

sanrensho wrote:
3Pio wrote:BTW, is it worth to pay extra 20 eur for Front Tire Block? (or 30 for Kinetic Rotation block) Or just to go with old phonebook?

And same question about specific trainer matt? Or to buy cheap SuperMarket training matt?


I would go for the riser ring. I've used both phone book and riser block, and think the riser ring looks more stable and versatile (varying heights).

For mat, I just use cheap interlocking square foam mats.


Thanks.. I'll order that then.. Just please help me in which Risser Ring? The one that is fixed, or the one that offer Rotation of handlebar? (Both Kinetic, and both offer Height Adjustment). If u have better idea about Risser Block (different brand, model), feel free to suggest me..


AJS914 wrote:Yes, on riser block. I ride the trainer 100% of the time on the riser block because it's more comfortable.

I never felt the need for a speed sensor on my Garmin. I've never had a problem with drop outs, trees, or tunnels. I do have a Garmin cadence sensor. When I ride the trainer though I get speed and cadence from the trainer though I admit that the trainer's cadence isn't very accurate. I haven't figured out how to get power and speed from the trainer and cadence from the Garmin sensor.

You know, if you just want a dumb trainer, find a used one. They are so cheap now that everybody is upgrading.


The interesting thing is that Brand New Kinetic Road Machine with InRide is almost the same price as used, so no worth to buy used..

About connecting the power from the trainer and speed/cadence from sensors, do u have ANT+ stick on computer u use for ZWIFT (and similar)? No possability to choose which sensor what duty will have?

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