UCI testosterone testing limits?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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ghostinthemachine
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by ghostinthemachine

eins4eins wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:50 pm
The main factor isn't tech, but nutrition, recovery and early identification of genetically gifted riders. They nowadays find those aliens, train them smart and fuel them proper.
TBH, one of the pros of yesteryear, it *might* have been lemond, said that the best cyclist of our (being his) generation is probably smoking a packet of cigarettes a day and watching TV with a beer in his hand.

FWIW, my younger brother did a sports science degree and was tested for VO2max as part of a project, they repeated the test 3 times, with increasing levels of rigour and oversight from the course leaders until the decided that the machinery wasn't broken and he really *did* have a VO2 max of around 80. Most of the rest of his course (mostly those with some athletic intentions) were between about 50 and 70.
Though as a larger, beer drinking, cigarette smoking, 19 year old rugby prop, he never did bother exploring his potential in any sort of endurance sport and has been occasionally walking with a stick since his mid 30's.

These days they've have had him off the beer and ciggies and wired up on a treadmill within about 20 minutes.

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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

While cycling is the sport most heavily skewed toward power output and least reliant on technique, in order to be elite you still have to tick all the boxes, not just one box like VO2max. You need VLamax, genetic disposition for fast recovery, flexibility in all the right places, intuition/tactics, bike handling skills, the ability to turn off your lizard brain, etc, etc.
Last edited by TobinHatesYou on Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

AJS914
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by AJS914

Plus you have to want to train and be on a bike 20+ hours per week. Most people don't want to do that.

OnTheRivet
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by OnTheRivet

eins4eins wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:50 pm
The main factor isn't tech, but nutrition, recovery and early identification of genetically gifted riders. They nowadays find those aliens, train them smart and fuel them proper.

Armstrong, Pantani, Ullrich and Co. made stupid mistakes in training and racing by todays standard and still went crazy fast.
Imagine how fast they would've climbed those mountains if they weren't constantly underfueled but consumed 120gr of carbs per hour during a hard stage.
Exactly this. Recovery is insane now with current tech and understanding. That is what makes or breaks a Grand Tour winner.

OnTheRivet
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by OnTheRivet

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:28 pm
While cycling is the sport most heavily skewed toward power output and least reliant on technique.
This is simply not true. Being able to ride all day in a bunch shoulder to shoulder without using nervous energy requires immense skill. There is plenty of anecdoctal evidence of riders moving to the world tour level because they have the engine and simply didn't have the skill to use it. Phil Gaimon is an example. Dudes a spaz on a bike, from first hand knowledge.

warthog101
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by warthog101

AJS914 wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2023 9:44 pm
Plus you have to want to train and be on a bike 20+ hours per week. Most people don't want to do that.
Yep. We had a young bloke here with the body to compete at a very high level. Could climb like a Billy goat. Went over to Europe and achieved some reasonable results but just didn't sustain it due to lack of interest and work ethic. The mind needs to be there too. That was that :(

TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

OnTheRivet wrote:
Fri Jul 14, 2023 2:45 am
TobinHatesYou wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:28 pm
While cycling is the sport most heavily skewed toward power output and least reliant on technique.
This is simply not true. Being able to ride all day in a bunch shoulder to shoulder without using nervous energy requires immense skill. There is plenty of anecdoctal evidence of riders moving to the world tour level because they have the engine and simply didn't have the skill to use it. Phil Gaimon is an example. Dudes a spaz on a bike, from first hand knowledge.

Nervous energy exists in every sport… Name another sport where basically 97% of the power output at the legs goes toward forward movement.

Besides the point of my post was to say a big engine doesn’t make you elite.

TheKaiser
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by TheKaiser

Aeo wrote:
Thu Jul 06, 2023 6:15 pm
The CIR test is very expensive and is not used very often. You can use it to catch people who are on TRT and get generic testosterone from their pharmacy.

In elite/pro sports you are more careful about the source, administration, dosage of testosterone
Am I correct that you are suggesting that top athletes who don't mind spending the money on the right gear can get special testosterone made to have the same CIR as their endogenous testosterone? If so, that is pretty wild, but makes total sense for those trying to beat the WADA tests.

Aeo
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by Aeo

https://sci-hub.ru/https://www.jstor.or ... e/20762198
But at least it is proven that Jenapharm since 1983 produced the so called "Epitestosterone", a product having no pharmaceutical purpose at all. It served exclusively as a camouflage for testosterone doping. However Epitestosterone was no invention made by Jenapharm, but produced according to "Staatsplan (national plan) 14/25". Unfortunately, there are no statistics about the amount of production; it remains also unclear how it was distributed. Usually, staff members of the "Forschungsinstitut fur Körperkultur und Sport (FKS)" in Leipzig, an institution doing research in sports, went to Jena to pick it up.
This was being done 40 years ago. There are no limits to your imagination

https://sci-hub.ru/https://doi.org/10.1 ... /43.7.1262
GDR sports medicine had an additional strategy to circumvent the doping test. Since 1983, VEB Jenapharm had produced preparations of epitestosterone propionate, a biologically inactive compound that had no commercial value but was prepared exclusively for the governmental doping system. As Riedel reported in 1983, the sports physicians of the GDR had determined the dosage of epitestosterone necessary to be injected, simultaneously or sequentially, “to bring the T:E ratio back into the normal range.” The injection of epitestosterone, alone or together with testosterone, was then frequently incorporated into the program—but only for the top athletes in international competitions.
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TobinHatesYou
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by TobinHatesYou

And then? Exogenous testosterone or epitestosterone is detected by CIR.

robertbb
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by robertbb

TobinHatesYou wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2023 10:21 pm
And then? Exogenous testosterone or epitestosterone is detected by CIR.
You're going in circles, Aeo already addressed that in the previous page.

I tend to believe that well resourced teams are well ahead of the game insofar as being able to engineer substances that now appear endogenous.

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alanjob
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Location: Northern Ireland

by alanjob

ghostinthemachine wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2023 3:11 pm
eins4eins wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:50 pm
The main factor isn't tech, but nutrition, recovery and early identification of genetically gifted riders. They nowadays find those aliens, train them smart and fuel them proper.
TBH, one of the pros of yesteryear, it *might* have been lemond, said that the best cyclist of our (being his) generation is probably smoking a packet of cigarettes a day and watching TV with a beer in his hand.

FWIW, my younger brother did a sports science degree and was tested for VO2max as part of a project, they repeated the test 3 times, with increasing levels of rigour and oversight from the course leaders until the decided that the machinery wasn't broken and he really *did* have a VO2 max of around 80. Most of the rest of his course (mostly those with some athletic intentions) were between about 50 and 70.
Though as a larger, beer drinking, cigarette smoking, 19 year old rugby prop, he never did bother exploring his potential in any sort of endurance sport and has been occasionally walking with a stick since his mid 30's.

These days they've have had him off the beer and ciggies and wired up on a treadmill within about 20 minutes.
Your brother's experience with VO2 max testing underscores the importance of individual physiology in athletic performance. Despite not pursuing endurance sports, his high VO2 max showcases the potential within different body types and lifestyles. By the way, have you ever considered trying Lost Mary MO20000 vapes? They offer a relaxing way to unwind after intense physical activity or simply as a leisure activity.

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alanjob
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by alanjob

Typically, the focus is on keeping the playing field level, and testosterone levels are closely monitored with specific thresholds that must be adhered to. Anything considered as "doping" would be flagged under their regulations. To ensure I respect the limits of testosterone I get supplements only from https://militarymuscle.co.
Last edited by alanjob on Mon Jun 17, 2024 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ms6073
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by ms6073

eins4eins wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2023 2:50 pm
Armstrong, Pantani, Ullrich and Co. made stupid mistakes in training and racing by todays standard and still went crazy fast.
Can't decide whether that is the best or the worst analogy ever. :smartass:
- Michael
"People should stop expecting normal from me... seriously, we all know it's never going to happen"

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