Rest week, when and how?

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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Gwcman
Posts: 37
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 3:15 pm

by Gwcman

So I've been doing my frist structred trraining plan, I decided to go with Fascat 18 Weeks Sweet Spot (Intermediate). They have 3 options (basic, intermediate, advanced) to chose from when selecting a plan and it has more to do with your available weekly hours to train than your skill level. Basic is 4-8hrs, Intermediate is 8-12hrs and Advanced is 12-16+ hours per week to train.

Their plans are referred to as a "working mans" plan - cause let's face it we all have jobs & other commitments unless you're a pro. They recommend you start the plan on a Monday which is a rest day, at the beginning of the plan you would do an FTP test on the Tuesday to set your zones, then would train on a regular week Tues, Wed, Thur, with every Friday & Monday off, Saturday & Sunday are for freestyle Group rides and long endurance rides - got some fun & freedom mixed in which is great. Every 4th week is a regeneration week to give your body a rest and absorb the work done. The previous 3 weeks you gradually increase your TSS. During that 4th regeneration week you only do 3 rides, typically on a Wednesday, Friday then a long ride on Saturday.

So far its' been fantastic, you progessively build and never feel burned out as it's perfectly timed and after that regeneration week your legs feel light & snappy and you notice the gains - I was shocked at first!

I believe a structed plan is the best "bang for the buck" if you're looking for gains, as you're not wasting time on "junk miles" thinking you're improving when you're not. The gains I've noticed over the past 10 weeks have been amazing and I"m riding less than before while I see others smashing away daily outside or on Zwift never taking a rest or giving their body a chance to absorb training - that will only take you so far before you plateau or get injured/sick.

I recently purchased another 2 plans for when I complete this plan in several weeks time.

Cheers,

Mcdeez
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:40 pm

by Mcdeez

iheartbianchi wrote:
Mcdeez wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:23 pm
But the thing is that your heart rate can vary from day to day depends of your condition,etc. That's why they say not to workout 100% with heart rate
Who says that? The variation of heart rate is completely overblown - oddly enough, thousands of elite endurance athletes in other sports rely 100% on heart rate every day, but somehow cyclists have significant daily variations in heart rate?

Unless you are doing something terrible to your body (like too much sugar, caffeine, smoking, drinking), or are overtrained/burnt out/injured, your heart rate day to day is more or less stable and consistent.
https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-u ... Heart-Rate


Just listen to the podcast.

Trainning relying on heartrate its a old school way, powermeter is way more precise tool

When i'm tranning in the zone 2, my heartrate varies during training from day to day, some times its higher that other ones, some times its lower, you cant rely 100% on that.



by Weenie


TobinHatesYou
Posts: 7995
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:02 pm

by TobinHatesYou

Mcdeez wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:48 pm

When i'm tranning in the zone 2, my heartrate varies during training from day to day, some times its higher that other ones, some times its lower, you cant rely 100% on that.

Er...

When you're training Z2, it doesn't matter if you're doing high Z2 or low Z2. You're actually better off training off your HR because that's literally what you're training.

Z3 is a gray area, but also a pretty meh training zone, so don't bother.

Z4+, rely primarily on power numbers.

Mcdeez
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:40 pm

by Mcdeez


TobinHatesYou wrote:
Mcdeez wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:48 pm

When i'm tranning in the zone 2, my heartrate varies during training from day to day, some times its higher that other ones, some times its lower, you cant rely 100% on that.

Er...

When you're training Z2, it doesn't matter if you're doing high Z2 or low Z2. You're actually better off training off your HR because that's literally what you're training.

Z3 is a gray area, but also a pretty meh training zone, so don't bother.

Z4+, rely primarily on power numbers.
Yes,Youre right ,it was just a example of heartrate variations.

Tranning with power is more precise, example if you want to do your over/unders 92%ftp-105% ftp, how you know you hit the power? Heartrate always varies,
Just forget heartrate and train to hit the power needed,we are not in the old times anymore lol

Last edited by Mcdeez on Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Toybota
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:16 pm

by Toybota

Mcdeez wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:48 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Mcdeez wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:23 pm
But the thing is that your heart rate can vary from day to day depends of your condition,etc. That's why they say not to workout 100% with heart rate
Who says that? The variation of heart rate is completely overblown - oddly enough, thousands of elite endurance athletes in other sports rely 100% on heart rate every day, but somehow cyclists have significant daily variations in heart rate?

Unless you are doing something terrible to your body (like too much sugar, caffeine, smoking, drinking), or are overtrained/burnt out/injured, your heart rate day to day is more or less stable and consistent.
https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-u ... Heart-Rate


Just listen to the podcast.

Trainning relying on heartrate its a old school way, powermeter is way more precise tool

When i'm tranning in the zone 2, my heartrate varies during training from day to day, some times its higher that other ones, some times its lower, you cant rely 100% on that.
I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of a TR podcast.
Unless you think doing 5 SS workout per week is a good thing.

Mcdeez
Posts: 253
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2020 3:40 pm

by Mcdeez

Toybota wrote:
Mcdeez wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:48 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Mcdeez wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 3:23 pm
But the thing is that your heart rate can vary from day to day depends of your condition,etc. That's why they say not to workout 100% with heart rate
Who says that? The variation of heart rate is completely overblown - oddly enough, thousands of elite endurance athletes in other sports rely 100% on heart rate every day, but somehow cyclists have significant daily variations in heart rate?

Unless you are doing something terrible to your body (like too much sugar, caffeine, smoking, drinking), or are overtrained/burnt out/injured, your heart rate day to day is more or less stable and consistent.
https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-u ... Heart-Rate


Just listen to the podcast.

Trainning relying on heartrate its a old school way, powermeter is way more precise tool

When i'm tranning in the zone 2, my heartrate varies during training from day to day, some times its higher that other ones, some times its lower, you cant rely 100% on that.
I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of a TR podcast.
Unless you think doing 5 SS workout per week is a good thing.
Yes and no, they explained about the SS workout not long ago

The SSB is more for begginers build a base, when youve built your base ,you raise your threshold by other way... you want. They are more a pyramidal tranning style


Toybota
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2021 9:16 pm

by Toybota

Mcdeez wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 7:23 pm
Toybota wrote:
Mcdeez wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:48 pm
iheartbianchi wrote:
Who says that? The variation of heart rate is completely overblown - oddly enough, thousands of elite endurance athletes in other sports rely 100% on heart rate every day, but somehow cyclists have significant daily variations in heart rate?

Unless you are doing something terrible to your body (like too much sugar, caffeine, smoking, drinking), or are overtrained/burnt out/injured, your heart rate day to day is more or less stable and consistent.
https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-u ... Heart-Rate


Just listen to the podcast.

Trainning relying on heartrate its a old school way, powermeter is way more precise tool

When i'm tranning in the zone 2, my heartrate varies during training from day to day, some times its higher that other ones, some times its lower, you cant rely 100% on that.
I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of a TR podcast.
Unless you think doing 5 SS workout per week is a good thing.
Yes and no, they explained about the SS workout not long ago

The SSB is more for begginers build a base, when youve built your base ,you raise your threshold by other way... you want. They are more a pyramidal tranning style
Since when did they perscribe SSB to the beginners only? I don't care who you are but doing 4-5 SS Workout per week to build a base is just mental.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

Mcdeez wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 4:48 pm

Just listen to the podcast.

Trainning relying on heartrate its a old school way, powermeter is way more precise tool

When i'm tranning in the zone 2, my heartrate varies during training from day to day, some times its higher that other ones, some times its lower, you cant rely 100% on that.
That's just ridiculous. Numerous current indoor/outdoor world class cyclists train based on heart rate zones, especially when it comes to intervals or hill workouts. How many world class athletes use TR or FTP zones? I'll wait for the list.

If you're training to power zones, of course your heart rate will vary from day to day, unless you are riding the exact same distance at the exact same intensity every day. This is precisely why people use heart rate monitors, since your heart rate will vary depending on how hard (or easy) you went the day or two before, and an elevated heart rate tells you things about your body that your power meter cannot (and in the inverse, the inability to get your heart rate high tells you another story). Blindly pushing 400 watts up a hill, or cruising at 200 watts for 2 hours, tells you absolutely nothing other than the power output that is being delivered.

Developing the hill climb example - you know you're going hard at 400 watts. Your breathing is hard, you feel the pain. OK...but if you were to put a number on the level of effort? Oh between 80% and 90% of max effort? Or is it 85% to 95%? And this here is the problem. There is a huge difference between 80% and 90%, and 85% and 95%, which difference has massive implications for the rest of your ride, and your training the next day or the day after (something about lactic acid). But can you tell the difference between an 80% effort and say an 85% effort? Or a 90% effort vs. a 95% effort? You'd be lying if you said you could. But your body can tell when there's just not enough oxygen (it's not a wall, oxygen deprivation accumulates), and starts pumping out lactate to process your glucose and paralyze your muscles to stop them from working. By the time you feel it in your legs it's too late and there's nothing you can do but wait for the lactic acid to clear (can take minutes if you were careful, or days if you really screwed yourself by pushing too hard).

If you look at elite cyclists training on hills, you will see them suddenly drop their cadence, and raise it again (while maintaining equivalent speed and power). Why? When they see their HR climb to or near their lactic threshold, they drop a few gears and grind the pedals until their HR drops back down to safety and accumulate oxygen, before spinning back up and pushing up to their LT. Unless it's a race and you can afford to empty yourself and screw the next few days, self-preservation for the next repetition, and training the next day, is key.
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bilwit
Posts: 1487
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

Toybota wrote:
Tue Jun 01, 2021 6:14 pm
I wouldn't trust anything that comes out of a TR podcast.
Unless you think doing 5 SS workout per week is a good thing.
They acknowledged that their periodic SS plans are not ideal but they are aimed at specifically time crunched people who only have an hour for a handful of days in the week to ride.

There is a definite pattern among TR users with the misconception that their plans are the bible when the plans are more of a side thing to the entirety of the platform at this point.

I do see the "power is everything" argument come up all the time with new people though. Power is more of a measure of strength and HR is more of a measure of effort. Sometimes doing the same workout to power is harder than normal due to whatever the reason (fatigue, nutrition, etc). If you go by power they are the "same" effort, but HR will tell you the reality.

iheartbianchi
Posts: 502
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

bilwit wrote:
Sun Jun 13, 2021 12:28 am
They acknowledged that their periodic SS plans are not ideal but they are aimed at specifically time crunched people who only have an hour for a handful of days in the week to ride.

There is a definite pattern among TR users with the misconception that their plans are the bible when the plans are more of a side thing to the entirety of the platform at this point.

I do see the "power is everything" argument come up all the time with new people though. Power is more of a measure of strength and HR is more of a measure of effort. Sometimes doing the same workout to power is harder than normal due to whatever the reason (fatigue, nutrition, etc). If you go by power they are the "same" effort, but HR will tell you the reality.
Isn't buying a SS plan sort of ironic? If you're only doing a handful of rides a week what's the point of buying a training plan? You'll never be anything more than a mediocore average/below-average rider on 3-4 hours of riding a week (detraining effects of so much rest each week will quickly cause you to stagnate). At that point you may as well just ride however you want for the fun of it, since you'll quickly plateau and you'll just stay there until you can commit to at least 6 or so hours a week, when you can do some real training and get some real long-term growth.

4-6 hours a week is somewhat tricky as you're kind of on the cusp of being able to have a "real" training program, but still a bit short.
Bianchi Oltre XR4
Celeste Matte
Campy SR 11spd mechanical
Bora Ultra 50 tubs
Viseon 5D / stock bits and parts

Bianchi Specialissima Pantani Edition
Campy R 12spd mechanical
Fulcrum Racing Speed 35 tubs
FSA / Deda bits and parts

bilwit
Posts: 1487
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:49 am
Location: Seattle, WA

by bilwit

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 4:49 am
Isn't buying a SS plan sort of ironic? If you're only doing a handful of rides a week what's the point of buying a training plan? You'll never be anything more than a mediocore average/below-average rider on 3-4 hours of riding a week (detraining effects of so much rest each week will quickly cause you to stagnate). At that point you may as well just ride however you want for the fun of it, since you'll quickly plateau and you'll just stay there until you can commit to at least 6 or so hours a week, when you can do some real training and get some real long-term growth.

4-6 hours a week is somewhat tricky as you're kind of on the cusp of being able to have a "real" training program, but still a bit short.
I think the obvious answer here is that it's not made for everyone. Their target audience is primarily people who are brand new to structured training or people who don't have a lot of a time. For some people the alternative to not having any sort of structured system is not training at all and having the cost investment holds them accountable for making the most out of it.

I also think TR as a platform has been moving away from being training plan focused and more of a "coach yourself" suite in the direction of Training Peaks (not quite there but in the direction of). They basically haven't touched their "training plan" system for years and have since added things like activity calendar management where you can create your own plan schedule, workout and historical metric analysis, and even their latest "big" feature is "adaptive training" where it will prescribe workouts for you on the day based on your rolling TSS--which encourages people to not use their training plans.

I think longtime TR users eventually catch on to the notion that there's nothing special about TR plans and if you're not using their metrics or calendar then there isn't really a point to keep membership, as you can just take the handful of workouts you really like and move them onto another (free) platform and order/schedule them as you like (as you're already encouraged to do with TR's calendar), which I think even DC Rainmaker does this.

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