A Rant on Power-Based Training

A light bike doesn't replace good fitness.

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mattr
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by mattr

Nah, your first statement is wrong. From there on in it doesn't get much better.

by Weenie


iheartbianchi
Posts: 306
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by iheartbianchi

mattr wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:18 pm
Nah, your first statement is wrong. From there on in it doesn't get much better.
Here we go again...

My first statement:

"There is some physiological difference in maximum heart rate between people of the same gender of the same age, but if there are significant differences I would be suspicious of something else such as an inaccurate measurement of max heart rate or an underlying health issue."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4919019/

"The mean age, maximal heart rate (HR), and maximal aerobic capacity of the cohort were 43 ± 12 years, 178 ± 15 beats per minute, and 36.1 ± 10.6 mlO2 · kg−1 · min−1, respectively."

So we are looking at a variability of 15 beats per minute between a cohort of 4,796 test subjects with a mean age of 43, or a range of roughly 8%.

If you need age-by-age analysis, take a look at the scatterplot in Figure 1, you see a trend based on age, coalescing around a downward trending mean line, with a few outliers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3935487/

This is a study (there are many) showing that the 220-age equation is pretty inaccurate, but surely you don't dispute this fact.

Also: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10688280

Which states that although HR max remains relatively unchanged with training, evidence suggests that modest changes can be achieved with training. Which leads us to infer that HR max can indeed vary among people of the same gender of the same age.

Regarding the portion of the statement dealing with being suspicious of something else, is this seriously up for debate?

I'm being trolled again aren't I? :roll:
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onemanpeloton
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by onemanpeloton

mattr wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:18 pm
Nah, your first statement is wrong. From there on in it doesn't get much better.
Feel free to expand. Forget about the one-to-one and remember the hundreds of people that might read this. If you'd like to point out where the OP is wrong it would help promote the discussion and educate people
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spartacus
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by spartacus

The bros are out for blood in this thread, but they don’t have much in the way of cited sources or demonstrated reading comprehension. Seems pretty effing obvious to me that your power output can vary day to day with the same heart rate, but the effort the body is producing is more accurately measured by heart rate from a training perspective. Nobody said power is unimportant. Oh well, I’m sure the nay sayers are perfectly content with whatever they’re doing right?

iheartbianchi
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by iheartbianchi

spartacus wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 4:30 pm
The bros are out for blood in this thread, but they don’t have much in the way of cited sources or demonstrated reading comprehension. Seems pretty effing obvious to me that your power output can vary day to day with the same heart rate, but the effort the body is producing is more accurately measured by heart rate from a training perspective. Nobody said power is unimportant. Oh well, I’m sure the nay sayers are perfectly content with whatever they’re doing right?
To be fair, I did write my OP a bit obnoxiously...
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emcardle
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by emcardle

This thread is laughable coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between lactate and lactate acid or their effects and functions in the body.

spartacus
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by spartacus

emcardle wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:00 pm
This thread is laughable coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between lactate and lactate acid or their effects and functions in the body.
Lactate acid?

mattr
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by mattr

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:41 pm
"There is some physiological difference in maximum heart rate between people of the same gender of the same age, but if there are significant differences I would be suspicious of something else such as an inaccurate measurement of max heart rate or an underlying health issue."

"The mean age, maximal heart rate (HR), and maximal aerobic capacity of the cohort were 43 ± 12 years, 178 ± 15 beats per minute, and 36.1 ± 10.6 mlO2 · kg−1 · min−1, respectively."

So we are looking at a variability of 15 beats per minute between a cohort of 4,796 test subjects with a mean age of 43, or a range of roughly 8%.
Hang on, first you say that significant differences indicate a potential health issue, then you quote a report that has a potential range of 30 bpm between two apparently healthy subjects, and it isn't a significant difference to you? Weird. Thats around 20% of my entire range from RHR to MHR.
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:41 pm
This is a study (there are many) showing that the 220-age equation is pretty inaccurate, but surely you don't dispute this fact.
God no, i'm currently about 30 bpm outside this. 45y/o and 205 max, and a pefectly heart (i was tested quite extensively last year
for another, thankfully unrelated, issue.)
iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:41 pm
I'm being trolled again aren't I? :roll:
Not at all.

emcardle
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:39 pm

by emcardle

spartacus wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:24 pm
emcardle wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:00 pm
This thread is laughable coming from someone who doesn't know the difference between lactate and lactate acid or their effects and functions in the body.
Lactate acid?
Whoops :lol: was reading too many of iheartbianchis posts

AeroObsessive
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:42 am

by AeroObsessive

iheartbianchi wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 11:14 am
I thought I’d give you a chance to make a substantive point but it seems I was a bit naive. I will no longer be engaging with you but please feel free to carry on.
Builds a strawman argument for "rant". Gets called on it. Builds another strawman about FTP (which no one mentioned). Gets called on it.

Yeah, I can see why you don't want to engage.

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Lewn777
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by Lewn777

Aimed at nobody.
Please stop this 'trying to be right on the internet' game. You are not a shark and other people's ideas are not chopped up fish floating in the ocean.

There's nothing terrible about being wrong. If someone is corrected politely using evidence, that's fine. That's how we learn. 'Convince' other people of your 'correctness', try citing evidence in the form of studies and even personal examples and anecdotes.

Going in for the jugular using personal attacks, basically saying 'you're wrong asshole' is stupid and childish. Not only because it makes you look like a giant douche, but it makes people cringe because they're trying to read your crap. It makes other people not want to post things that are interesting and contraversial becuase they'll be attacked by some tag team of 'right' people. Worse other people will discount your 'oh so correct and valuable opinion' because they think that 'it's just people being dicks on the internet again'. Oh, and please don't have no clue and run off to Google it to seem right, that's just as bad, nobody needs a reguritiation of other people's knowledge and experience, they've probabaly already read it. :thumbup:

AJS914
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Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

It's also a bit suspicious when someone comes in with a brand new and anonymous account and their only contribution is picking on someone else. I'm surprised that admins let this go on.

AeroObsessive
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:42 am

by AeroObsessive

AJS914 wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 2:12 am
It's also a bit suspicious when someone comes in with a brand new and anonymous account and their only contribution is picking on someone else. I'm surprised that admins let this go on.
:roll:
Not picking on the person, just the incorrect facts they are posting. Training doesn't need more obsfuscation with misleading and incorrect threads such as this.

AeroObsessive
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2018 7:42 am

by AeroObsessive

Lewn777 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 11:32 pm
Aimed at nobody.
Please stop this 'trying to be right on the internet' game. You are not a shark and other people's ideas are not chopped up fish floating in the ocean.

There's nothing terrible about being wrong. If someone is corrected politely using evidence, that's fine. That's how we learn. 'Convince' other people of your 'correctness', try citing evidence in the form of studies and even personal examples and anecdotes.

Going in for the jugular using personal attacks, basically saying 'you're wrong asshole' is stupid and childish. Not only because it makes you look like a giant douche, but it makes people cringe because they're trying to read your crap. It makes other people not want to post things that are interesting and contraversial becuase they'll be attacked by some tag team of 'right' people. Worse other people will discount your 'oh so correct and valuable opinion' because they think that 'it's just people being dicks on the internet again'. Oh, and please don't have no clue and run off to Google it to seem right, that's just as bad, nobody needs a reguritiation of other people's knowledge and experience, they've probabaly already read it. :thumbup:
Being "right" is highly subjective. But being blatantly misleading through the use of strawman arguments can ,and should, be called out.

by Weenie


iheartbianchi
Posts: 306
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:17 am

by iheartbianchi

mattr wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 7:46 pm
Hang on, first you say that significant differences indicate a potential health issue, then you quote a report that has a potential range of 30 bpm between two apparently healthy subjects, and it isn't a significant difference to you? Weird. Thats around 20% of my entire range from RHR to MHR.
I copied and pasted my statement again.

"There is some physiological difference in maximum heart rate between people of the same gender of the same age, but if there are significant differences I would be suspicious of something else such as an inaccurate measurement of max heart rate or an underlying health issue."

If I see a range of 30bpm between two healthy subjects of the same age, I will obviously suspect an incorrect measurement and ask them to test again. Your 30bpm potential range are statistical outliers. There is a very clear mean heart rate that declines with age. Statistically speaking, it is VERY UNLIKELY that you will find two people of the same age with a heart range difference of 30bpm. But yes, do pick on the exceptions.
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