Making Weight Weenies a Better Place

News, announcements and discussions about Weight Weenies. (members, please do not start topics in here.)

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Beancouter
Posts: 748
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:04 pm

by Beancouter

godzuki26 wrote:I never really understood why people get so heated over topics that relate to bicycles. Most of us on this forum are not Professional riders but hobbyists. So why get so upset over something that is supposed to bring you joy on your spare time? Most of my time is spent on the Introduce Yourself board index because I like seeing people post their bikes. Why do discussions about rim vs disc or gravel gear ratio end up turning into pure nastiness? Who gives a crap! It's a hobby and you should do what you like and do what works best for you. It is sad to see a member who contributed quite a bit leave the forum. A dude who logged an enormous amount of solo miles on all kinds of equipment (frames, stems, wheel sets,tires, brakes, handlebars, seat posts , saddles, chain rings, crank sets, etc) that gave real use feedback on what works for HIM and what doesn't work for HIM. If someone doesn't agree with the stuff you do, just shrug it off and continue doing what you love. I will continue building unrideable cringe worthy fragile bikes because I like doing it. If someone doesn't agree with what I post, then I respectfully read their comments and simply continue doing what I want to do. I don't need to validate what I want to do on my spare time with anyone......well except for my wife :mrgreen:
+1


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LouisN
Posts: 2953
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 3:44 am
Location: Canada

by LouisN

I'm looking through many promising subjects (from the title) with so many unneccessary off topic comments, I understand how difficult it is for mods to keep this place like it used to be.
It also seems as if the maturity level of either many members, hence the general discussions, dropped dramatically lately...

Louis :)

by Weenie


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Alexbn921
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

godzuki26 wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:32 am
I never really understood why people get so heated over topics that relate to bicycles. Most of us on this forum are not Professional riders but hobbyists. So why get so upset over something that is supposed to bring you joy on your spare time? Most of my time is spent on the Introduce Yourself board index because I like seeing people post their bikes. Why do discussions about rim vs disc or gravel gear ratio end up turning into pure nastiness? Who gives a crap! It's a hobby and you should do what you like and do what works best for you. It is sad to see a member who contributed quite a bit leave the forum. A dude who logged an enormous amount of solo miles on all kinds of equipment (frames, stems, wheel sets,tires, brakes, handlebars, seat posts , saddles, chain rings, crank sets, etc) that gave real use feedback on what works for HIM and what doesn't work for HIM. If someone doesn't agree with the stuff you do, just shrug it off and continue doing what you love. I will continue building unrideable cringe worthy fragile bikes because I like doing it. If someone doesn't agree with what I post, then I respectfully read their comments and simply continue doing what I want to do. I don't need to validate what I want to do on my spare time with anyone......well except for my wife :mrgreen:
Like! :wink:

maxim809
Posts: 227
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:28 am

by maxim809

I offer no solutions but my guesses as to what's going on:

1. Justification of Choice and Identity

The "rim vs disc", "Spesh vs Pinarello" discussions are literally "iPhone vs Android", "BMW vs Audi" skiers vs snowboard. It's human nature to form cliques, and I think cycling especially is conducive to this with how strong branding has become.

I don't know why. Maybe something to do with having to create tribes in the old days to survive. In-groups vs out-groups. And if my choice doesn't match your's, things degenerate into high-school bullying.

I think the root of a lot of bickering that takes place in "X vs Y" debates is simply just both sides defending their identifies to their graves. Decoupling one's identify from their egos... everyone goes through different journeys to get there.

2. Stepping into discussions centered around speculation or opinion

An example of a speculative statement is, “What X-Brand charges to build a carbon bike is nowhere near as much as it costs to make it!” Okay. Even if it were true, nobody can give an accurate number. Without numbers, all it does is set off a bomb that degenerates into people defending their guesses. It’s like people arguing about how life started or if there is even an afterlife. The truth is, none of us have unanimously accepted evidence, but each of us “know” where we stand on our beliefs or lack thereof. Yet, people defend and antagonize others over speculation. Crazy.

But now imagine for a second that we had dead-nuts accurate numbers on cost for X-Brand to produce a frame. Even with this information, it invites conflicting opinions on “how things should be.” They should charge less they are robbing me. I think what they charge is fair for what they offer. Wow what a bargain I think they should charge more! At the core of each unique opinion will be some mixture of how the individual puts values on material goods combined with where they stand financially. People are stepping into essentially a class-conflict debate, which can quickly get real nasty. It also turn into infinite circular arguments which won’t break until both sides see it not just each other's ways but through the lens of everyone.

This is the problem with topics that are complex, speculative, based on opinions. It’s political. It’s exactly the type of topics your friends and family eventually ban at the dinner table because it sends everyone to bed really pissed off. The tricky thing is, without getting burned a few times the "why" doesn't truly sink in.

Don't get me wrong. I like discussion, healthy debate, and I believe the purpose of a forum is to have open organic discussion. A true debate with actual opposing views is quite hard to have IRL but mostly manageable with the right people. Somehow, the Internet amplifies certain people to turn into zealots. And left unmanaged, it drives the best people out.

3. Pandemic induced "outspoken" mindset

Honestly I think people are just finding themselves more and more in front of a computer and getting their social interaction online (look at me, long time lurker crawling out to find an outlet). And something about the political climate of the outside world is making everyone outspoken and opinionated on all topics. The attitude is leaking into topics pertaining to our hobbies. People feel they need to be heard so they throw their weight around yelling at clouds and typing up massive rants like what I'm totally doing right now if you're still with me a hoy hoy hoy.

I think the attitude will eventually pass. But without something done in the interim, there will be a huge toll taken on the community. FYI, nearly every online cycling community is dealing with some version of this, so it's not just WW alone. What's been interesting to observe is how each community is handling it differently.

4. New users due to pandemic need to “get their fill” of 1 & 2

I don’t see it nearly as much here, but on more newcomer-oriented communities there exists people who are just getting experienced enough into the sport to partake in all the best political cycling topics. The ‘disc vs rim’ that makes the experienced roll their eyes is a topic ripe for organic debate if you are a newbie graduating to mild enthusiast. Remember what I said earlier about "you need to get burned once or twice"? Again, not as much here, but in other places it's newbies throwing their weight around. Some adult supervision wouldn't hurt.

Solutions?

I dunno.

I’ve always been on a proponent of education to solve social issues, as well as aligning on cultural values. Problem is there’s a long lead time, so often by the time the solution is desperately needed it’s already too late. Many political discussions diffuse themselves if the people partaking can:

1. Educate themselves on the topics at hand
2. Put themselves in the shoes of everyone else as they walk through and build on their own thoughts
3. Identify when they have walked full circle, and disengage

But there’s really no magic wand to get everyone thinking like that.

So instead, normally what I see when a culture is defrayed is one or a few benevolent leaders step up to lay down what is and isn’t acceptable behavior, and crack down on the problem areas until that pressure is no longer needed because the community manages itself. This requires decisiveness and taking sides -- with which side you take being the opinion and discretion of the person in charge. You really won't know if you did it right until things play out. And a good leader can get things back on track while mitigating loss of the best contributors in the society. A bad one will do even more harm by amplifying exactly what made the culture spiral down in the first place, knowingly or not.

I think asking the community to flag things that need moderation is a good start, as was done in the original post.

But hey, I'm a "new" user as far as anyone here is concerned so my opinions don't mean much. :)
2013 Cannondale Synapse | 2015 LaPierre Pulsium | 2016 Pinarello Dogma F8 | 2016 Bianchi XR4 | 2019 Spesh Sprint

Orbital
Posts: 288
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:52 am
Location: Pitt Meadows, BC

by Orbital

Godzuki = the voice of reason!

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alistaird
Posts: 243
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:21 pm

by alistaird

[Opinion]

As someone who reads this forum a lot but contributes less so - here is my simple suggestion (and willing to be shot down of course).

We could find a way of separating the [Opinion] threads from the [Facts] threads. I've seen this done with [Tags] or by say a separate sub forum for Workshop vs Reviews...

Just think that would make it easier to flag off topic posts and to be clear where people are stating Opinions vs Facts.

Just my 2cs worth.

A

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jekyll man
Posts: 1457
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2007 10:23 am
Location: Pack filler

by jekyll man

MrCurrieinahurry wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:06 am
What can make this place better again.... If stuff already goes on like this I apologies only been back after a 14 year lay off...

The listings.
Some pro inputs (adam hansen) used to post on here prob others too which I found interesting.
Some competitions.
Organise some meet ups. Even just a yearly one in different areas of the world.

Tikka

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Nice to see you back, Adam :thumbup: It's not the same as when you and Rob (Legs11) were here regularly, but neither is the tinterweb.
Still tennising??
Official cafe stop tester

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Alexbn921
Posts: 628
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:39 pm

by Alexbn921

HOW ABOUT ENABLING SPELL CHECK! That would help me immensely

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MrCurrieinahurry
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:01 pm

by MrCurrieinahurry

jekyll man wrote:
MrCurrieinahurry wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:06 am
What can make this place better again.... If stuff already goes on like this I apologies only been back after a 14 year lay off...

The listings.
Some pro inputs (adam hansen) used to post on here prob others too which I found interesting.
Some competitions.
Organise some meet ups. Even just a yearly one in different areas of the world.

Tikka

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Nice to see you back, Adam Image It's not the same as when you and Rob (Legs11) were here regularly, but neither is the tinterweb.
Still tennising??
Haha has changed a little :) still enjoy looking through the pages tho

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RTW
in the industry
Posts: 3610
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 2:32 pm

by RTW

What happened to the old account Curry? Or was that something we speak not of?

fruitfly
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

In one forum I belong to, members flag, and moderators remove repetitive posts and replace with "repetitive post deleted". Different from banning, and yet sends a clear message to the tedious posters with an axe to grind.

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MrCurrieinahurry
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:01 pm

by MrCurrieinahurry

RTW wrote:What happened to the old account Curry? Or was that something we speak not of?
Couldn't remember my login lol and mods couldn't help :(

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fruitfly
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun Feb 09, 2020 1:40 pm
Location: Wet coast

by fruitfly

I was struck by comments in another thread by two posters, each of whom said they had been banned but didn't know why. This makes sense-if you can't tell what is wrong with your postings, you won't know why you were banned.

So I wonder if it wouldn't be better for moderators to delete the post with a brief reason ("repetition", "off-topic", "personal attack", "inappropriate for this forum" for example) rather than ban the the poster. This way the poster might learn something.

I like the definition of fanatic as "someone who can't change his mind and who won't change the subject". Perhaps banning could be kept in reserve for those poster who can't or won't learn.

mdeth1313
Moderator
Posts: 2323
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:38 am
Location: Dutchess County, NY

by mdeth1313

fruitfly wrote:
Mon Aug 31, 2020 8:56 pm
I was struck by comments in another thread by two posters, each of whom said they had been banned but didn't know why. This makes sense-if you can't tell what is wrong with your postings, you won't know why you were banned.
This is interesting - when a user is banned we can (and I do) put in a reason to be shown to the user who is banned. Either they're not looking for it or something went wrong with that procedure. Don' know if the other mods care to comment on that.
Speedplay is the devil!

by Weenie


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