Clear the confusion with Sram AXS Flat Top Chain Compatibility.

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LegPower
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by LegPower

kervelo wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:29 pm
Thanks @aquilinx and @jfranci3. That's what I thought too.

If I am correct at the moment SRAM does not have any 12sp chain ring that could be used with a Quarq PM (110 BCD) and would be suitable for gravel.

Edit: the SRAM 12 sp chain rings are only compatible with their newer PM (107 BCD).
Garbaruk has a 110 BCD flat top compatible chainring. I have both a 42 and a 44 and they work great with my quarq and a Red AXS rear deraileur.

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Beancouter
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by Beancouter

Any views on whether cannondale 1x spidering plays nicely with the flattop chain?


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carhillclimb
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by carhillclimb

The original poster was asking about compatibility so they could set up one bike with 2 possible gearing options. There are 2 things I do not understand about the bicycle industry offerings.

1) For those of who are not Mark Cavendish sprinters, and not doing 30mph group rides, and cannot do sub-50 minute 25 mile time trials, why not offer a wider range cassette, where the high speed range is single tooth gaps except the first gap being 2 teeth, and in more extreme cases the first 2 gaps being 2 teeth and the single tooth gaps starting at the 3rd smallest sprocket. That gives the rider a good downhill gear and then single step close ratio in the range where they actually ride. And then you can have 1 or 2 more large sprockets on the inside, depending on whether you choose wider range or closer ratio. I have 100000+ miles on these 2 setups and am not going back to the industry offerings. I only know how to do it on Shimano HG freehubs and 12 speeds or less, so I am limited to 11 tooth smallest rear sprocket. I have been thinking of trying to build an 11-50 14 speed setup like this shifted with XShift or Archer D1x, but that is a lot of work with probably less utility than the next thought.

2) They invented something called a front derailleur many years ago which allows you to have 2 chainrings on your bike at once. So you do not have to decide which to use before you start your ride. Yes I know it is harder to have good chain control with 2 chainrings, and I am not at all sure how to do a 50t rear sprocket with 2 chainrings (although with 2 chainrings you may be able to avoid sprockets anywhere near that large).

Why do we let the bicycle industry dictate that our bikes be so single-purpose? Might as well be riding a fixed with a flip-flop hub, instead of the ASC.
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by gSporco

carhillclimb wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 4:59 am
The original poster was asking about compatibility so they could set up one bike with 2 possible gearing options. There are 2 things I do not understand about the bicycle industry offerings.

1) For those of who are not Mark Cavendish sprinters, and not doing 30mph group rides, and cannot do sub-50 minute 25 mile time trials, why not offer a wider range cassette, where the high speed range is single tooth gaps except the first gap being 2 teeth, and in more extreme cases the first 2 gaps being 2 teeth and the single tooth gaps starting at the 3rd smallest sprocket. That gives the rider a good downhill gear and then single step close ratio in the range where they actually ride. And then you can have 1 or 2 more large sprockets on the inside, depending on whether you choose wider range or closer ratio. I have 100000+ miles on these 2 setups and am not going back to the industry offerings. I only know how to do it on Shimano HG freehubs and 12 speeds or less, so I am limited to 11 tooth smallest rear sprocket. I have been thinking of trying to build an 11-50 14 speed setup like this shifted with XShift or Archer D1x, but that is a lot of work with probably less utility than the next thought.

2) They invented something called a front derailleur many years ago which allows you to have 2 chainrings on your bike at once. So you do not have to decide which to use before you start your ride. Yes I know it is harder to have good chain control with 2 chainrings, and I am not at all sure how to do a 50t rear sprocket with 2 chainrings (although with 2 chainrings you may be able to avoid sprockets anywhere near that large).

Why do we let the bicycle industry dictate that our bikes be so single-purpose? Might as well be riding a fixed with a flip-flop hub, instead of the ASC.
This was posted some time ago by me.. since then I jave built, tested and or tried in one way or another every thing in the AXS line and other compatible components that play well with 12 speed AXS..

After going 1x for almost a season I landed on 2x for my road bike and 2x for my gravel bike..

I have simce sold the Aspero and now have an Aethos and Niner RLT9 Alloy for offroad rides.

The Aethos had 2x AXS and that was great, but because I am a constant tinkerer Ive swapped it out for Shi DA12 DI2

The Niner currently has mechanical GRX 2x and is flawless, but with the gaps in the 11-34 cassette I might as well go 1x. I am going to pull it apart soon and teat 2x AXS with a 10/36 and 46/33.. If the FD can keep the chain on for the ruff stuff Ill stick it out, if not then Ill go 1x Eagle for bigger range or wait to see if Shi comes out with a 12sp DI2 for gravel
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carhillclimb
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by carhillclimb

Can you tell us your experience of what works well with AXS and what does not, and the ways things that do not work well fail? That way we might tinker better ourselves.
Michael Wilson

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by gSporco

carhillclimb wrote:
Mon Jan 03, 2022 7:27 pm
Can you tell us your experience of what works well with AXS and what does not, and the ways things that do not work well fail? That way we might tinker better ourselves.
Ok, your mileage may vary but here is "my" experience...

Observation #1: When using Eagle Derailleur or Road Derailleur the corresponding chains offer the best performance for shifting smoothness (i.e. Eagle chain on Eagle and Flattop chain on Road AXS Derailleur. The front rings dont care; meaning 1x or 2x both chains work, but obviously you will not be running eagle out back with a 2x setup. Other chains: KMC was the noisiest, YBN was the runner up if you can source an Eagle chain..

Observation #2: Having used and setup the Red/ Force and Rival Front Derailleurs, I found the Rival is the most precise without ever dropping a chain inside or outside.. Also bonus points as the Rival is cheaper and lighter than the Force FD..

Observation #3: 36T Road AXS RD with Roadlink and e13 9-46 does not work

Observation #4: Eagle AXS RD with e13 9-46 was rubbish.. For me, on several bikes, shifting from 9 to 10 cog would take 30 seconds of the chain bouncing around until it shifted.. Eagle chain was used and the rest of the gears were fine however this is a noisy setup.. I did find that a cheaper YBN 12 speed chain was quieter, but still couldnt shift from 9-10 without hassle.

Observation #5: e13 9-50 cassette was perfect, no shifting issues with Eagle AXS RD, only Eagle chain used..

Observation #6: 33t AXS RD with a 10-36 cassette running 1x was perfect with a Flattop chain sized minus 1 link or sized to a 33t Cassette as per 3T blog recommendations. Running this in 2x was a PIA and suffered lots of front chain drops.. But this could be due to my experience with the Red and Force Derailleurs..

Observation #7: XPLR AXS isnt worth it.. This is my opinion.. but the gaps stink.. if you dont mind 2 tooth jumps then might as well get the added range of 10-50 vs 10-44 and small Chainring upfront.. My Goldilocks 1x was 46T Chainring with Eagle 10-50 in the back.. Plenty of top and bottom end for road or gravel.

Observation #8: 2x rings, Force vs Red, save your money and get Force rings and put them on Red cranks.. same weight as all Red and cheaper.. no shifting difference between the two

If I think of more, ill add
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kervelo
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by kervelo

Using the old thread, although the question is not related to flat top chains.

I am thinking of (temporarily) using a 12sp road crankset in a 11sp Apex drivetrain.

If I read the compatibility map correctly, a 12sp Eagle chain should work with a 12sp 1x road crankset.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/docum ... ty-map.pdf

Do you know if the 12sp Eagle chain also works with the Apex 11sp rear derailleur and cassette?

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ProfessorChaos
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by ProfessorChaos

Very informative insightful thread. I'm picking up a Force XPLR Aspero5 tomorrow myself. I tested it with a 44t Absolute Black oval chainring on a 110bcd 5bolt Quarq, and it worked great so preliminarily I'll be using that with the 10-44 cassette. I'm a bit worried that I won't be able to stomach the gaps between gears. I had a first gen Diverge with 10-42 Force 11, and I didn't like the jumps at all. That being said, I did climb Mt. Evans on that bike with little, or no problems. It was faster flat stuff where the gaps in gearing were noticed.

My current gravel bike Specialized Sequoia is Force 22 with Absolute Black 52/36, and 11-25 cassette. I did the Gravel Locos 150 on it last year with no issues, and will be using the Aspero on it this year. With the 44x10 I will loose just a bit of top end to the 52x11, it's very close to a 50x11 actually. I think I'll be fine there. I do find myself in the 52x11 at times, and I used it at GL150. The 36x25 worked fine for me on the climbs, but having a little more gear to spin a bit more on the steeps would be nice, but they were all short punchy climbs at the GL150 The 1:1 of the 44x44 might be a bit much honestly, and I might end up going 44t 10-36 to get the gaps just a bit tighter.

I've also thought of going 2x, with a 46/33 10-28 to get the top end, and keep the gaps tight if I have to. I think my proclivity to smaller gaps in gears might be a bit in my head, and I'm hoping that a 10-36, or 10-44 will work fine. I've also found a great bit of value in the AB oval rings on gravel. They help keep traction on the looser stuff, and smooth out my pedal stroke when I start to get tired, and start to mash the pedals. The problem with going 2x is I won't be able to use oval chainrings as none seem to play well with 2x AXS from what I understand.

Anyway, I wanted to chime in as I think my experience I'm about to encounter the next few months in preparation for the GL150 with my new bike should provide some good data to add. If anyone has any helpful suggestions for me, I'm all ears as well.

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ProfessorChaos
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by ProfessorChaos

kervelo wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:42 pm
Using the old thread, although the question is not related to flat top chains.

I am thinking of (temporarily) using a 12sp road crankset in a 11sp Apex drivetrain.

If I read the compatibility map correctly, a 12sp Eagle chain should work with a 12sp 1x road crankset.
https://www.sram.com/globalassets/docum ... ty-map.pdf

Do you know if the 12sp Eagle chain also works with the Apex 11sp rear derailleur and cassette?
I'll be testing this exact setup in the coming weeks. I'm selling my friend a 12sp AXS crank to use with his Apex 11 bike. I'm thinking the 11sp chain should work fine, but I haven't tested it yet.

kervelo
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by kervelo

ProfessorChaos wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:09 am

I'll be testing this exact setup in the coming weeks. I'm selling my friend a 12sp AXS crank to use with his Apex 11 bike. I'm thinking the 11sp chain should work fine, but I haven't tested it yet.
Sounds good. According to a comment from a LBS the SRAM 11 speed chain (for example PC-1170) should work fine with the SRAM 12 speed 1x chainrings (for example the direct mount rings used in https://www.sram.com/en/sram/models/pm-riv-1w-d1).

Bmied31
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by Bmied31

Trying to save myself from getting a XDR freehub body and new cassette. I already have an 11-46 12 speed cassette HG. I'm wondering if that would work on the Rival XPLR with a standard Eagle 12 speed chain. I'm hearing mixed answers on using a non flattop chain with a AXS road rear derailler. Also XPLR has 44t limit. 11-46 has actually less range then 10-44 and 2 teeth bigger so hoping it might work.

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cerro
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by cerro

I got a bike with Force XPLR derailleur and Shimano XT 10-45 cassette and XT chain on now, no problems.

Erwin
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by Erwin

Would a 11spd chain (Red22) or my prefered chain Shimano M9100 would work with SRAM AXS chainrings? Want to try Red 46/33 powermeter spider on my Quarq D1 crank and the rest will be GRX DI2. Front derailleur Ultegra or GRX DI2. Have to try which one would work better. Any experiences with this mix?

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by gSporco

Erwin wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:06 pm
Would a 11spd chain (Red22) or my prefered chain Shimano M9100 would work with SRAM AXS chainrings? Want to try Red 46/33 powermeter spider on my Quarq D1 crank and the rest will be GRX DI2. Front derailleur Ultegra or GRX DI2. Have to try which one would work better. Any experiences with this mix?
Highly recommend you use a 12 speed chain, if one of the components are 12 sp.
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Erwin
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by Erwin

Erwin wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 1:06 pm
Would a 11spd chain (Red22) or my prefered chain Shimano M9100 would work with SRAM AXS chainrings? Want to try Red 46/33 powermeter spider on my Quarq D1 crank and the rest will be GRX DI2. Front derailleur Ultegra or GRX DI2. Have to try which one would work better. Any experiences with this mix?
Found this at Trainerroad:
"Due to the larger rollers on the SRAM road 12-speed Flattop chains, you have to use an Eagle Flattop MTB chain with the Eagle (or other SRAM 12-speed MTB) cassette. You can, however, use a Force or Red AXS crank with it. When I asked if the smaller Eagle chain rollers create premature chainring wear on the road AXS chainrings made for the bigger road AXS chain rollers (seems to me that the rollers would sit toward the front of each tooth valley), SRAM engineer Brad Menna replied, “No. We tested the configurations in our labs. The Eagle chain meshes with the Road 12sp CR teeth adequately enough to provide the same performance and retention functionality. There is no loss in durability. You can use either a 1X RED or Force AXS 12sp crank or an Eagle crank — frame chain-line will determine which crank to use."

I have also seen that Garbaruk recommend nearly all of their chainrings AXS and other 12spd compatible. But they are all 1x chainrings though...
gSporco wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:34 pm
Highly recommend you use a 12 speed chain, if one of the components are 12 sp.
Yes, I will try Eagle or Shimano 12spd chains.

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