Rene herse/compass tyres

[eurperg]

^ No f***ing way I’m going to add any kind of tape to my Shamal Carbons, they are intended to be used without any tape at all. There is no tire on earth that would make put a layer of Gorilla on them. Michelin Power Gravel 35mm and GP5000TL 32mm can be installed on Shamals with just a track pump. If the bead is too loose, the tire belongs to dumpster.

[Marin]

What about the rubber compund? I have found the 35mm GK slicks to be quite slippy (boarderline sketchy) on agressive breaking distances and tight turns on asphalt. I just have infinite more confidence on my follow up Schwalbe Pro One 32mm tires in these situation.
Given the Rene Herse is coming from Panaracer as well I assume grippiniess is similar to the GK, right?

I'm thinking maybe the Challenge Strada Bianca 33mm HTLR (announced at Eurobike) could be an interesting experiment along these lines. Schwalbe now also has the Pro One in 34mm so big manufacturers are slowly catching up with the fast allroad tire trend. Let's see if we see a new announcement during the Roubaix week.

No grip issues in the dry with GK slicks for me. I'm 95% sure the rubber compound will be the same for Herse/Panaracer. In the wet, I prefer Schwable & Conti, but I really don't like the ride.

Beware, the new Pro One with the "Super Ground" casings are quite a bit slower than the old models.

[spartacus]

^ No f***ing way I’m going to add any kind of tape to my Shamal Carbons, they are intended to be used without any tape at all. There is no tire on earth that would make put a layer of Gorilla on them. Michelin Power Gravel 35mm and GP5000TL 32mm can be installed on Shamals with just a track pump. If the bead is too loose, the tire belongs to dumpster.

Listen here BRO

There isn't one standard for bead diameter so on certain tires you need to use more or less rim tape. RH tires happen to be loose AF and in my experience the bead can stretch a little after a while so either add tape so they are TIGHT or use another tire

[andrewbn42]

^ No f***ing way I’m going to add any kind of tape to my Shamal Carbons, they are intended to be used without any tape at all. There is no tire on earth that would make put a layer of Gorilla on them. Michelin Power Gravel 35mm and GP5000TL 32mm can be installed on Shamals with just a track pump. If the bead is too loose, the tire belongs to dumpster.

Listen here BRO

There isn't one standard for bead diameter so on certain tires you need to use more or less rim tape. RH tires happen to be loose AF and in my experience the bead can stretch a little after a while so either add tape so they are TIGHT or use another tire

If a tubeless tire bead starts “loose AF” and then stretches, it is as a tubeless tire. Might as well get a non tubeless tire and save some money.

[spartacus]

^ No f***ing way I’m going to add any kind of tape to my Shamal Carbons, they are intended to be used without any tape at all. There is no tire on earth that would make put a layer of Gorilla on them. Michelin Power Gravel 35mm and GP5000TL 32mm can be installed on Shamals with just a track pump. If the bead is too loose, the tire belongs to dumpster.

Listen here BRO

There isn't one standard for bead diameter so on certain tires you need to use more or less rim tape. RH tires happen to be loose AF and in my experience the bead can stretch a little after a while so either add tape so they are TIGHT or use another tire

If a tubeless tire bead starts “loose AF” and then stretches, it is as a tubeless tire. Might as well get a non tubeless tire and save some money.

I'm not saying RH doesn't need to look at their bead sizing and tolerance, I'm just pointing out that the industry standards are not well established or followed, and that RH makes their beads a loose fit on purpose, so in order to use their tires on certain rims, you have to sometimes add more rim tape.

For the record I think their beads are too loose. But they're useable - with more tape.

[allrandomletters]

There is no problem with bead stretch or bead diameter on Rene Herse tires in my experience. The difficulty in getting the tire to install is precisely because of the supple sidewalls.

Most tires are made with a thicker vulcanized rubber sidewall which is stiffer, so that the tire sidewalls holds their shape on their own without air pressure, and springs the bead against the ramp in the rim bed. When you pump air in the bead is already pressing against the ramp on its own, there is less room for the air to escape, building pressure inside the tire, and forcing the bead up the ramp into the bead shelf.

Tires with handspun, soft, and supple sidewalls lay flat (like Rene Herse, Vittoria Corsa) and do not hold their shape on their own. The beads do not spring out against the ramp in the rim. I have found multiple tricks to get these tires to seat.

- Use a tire lever to manually set the tire bead onto the tire shelf. It's almost like you are trying to take the tire off the rim, but instead just slide the lever around the wheel and drop the tire bead right into the bead shelf. Do this on both sides for about a quarter to half turn each side of the valve. This helps the air distribute around the inside of the tire evenly, instead of just escaping immediately from under the bead beside the valve.
- Use an air compressor. The air compressor doesn't get tired, and continues pumps air volume faster than it can escape around the bead.
- Insert sealant before getting the bead to set. I've had several difficult tires that set the beads instantly after just adding sealant and sloshing it around.
- Install the tire first with an innertube. Inflate the tube until the tire bead pops into place. Leave overnight. Carefully remove the tube from only one side of the tire, leaving the opposite bead set into the bead shelf. See first point about manually setting some of the bead around the valve on the side from which the innertube was removed.
- Use rim tape. Install the tire normally. The rim tape takes up some of the space between the bead and the ramp, retricting the airflow, and retaining that pressure inside the tire.

I have gotten multiple Rene Herse EL casing tires to install on several different wheels with no problem by just manually setting some of the bead with a tire lever. No tape required. Not all the above tricks are required together, but more difficult tires may need several tricks in combination.

The ride quality of the soft sidewalls is absolutely worth the minor installation quirks.

[spartacus]

There is no problem with bead stretch or bead diameter on Rene Herse tires in my experience. The difficulty in getting the tire to install is precisely because of the supple sidewalls.

Most tires are made with a thicker vulcanized rubber sidewall which is stiffer, so that the tire sidewalls holds their shape on their own without air pressure, and springs the bead against the ramp in the rim bed. When you pump air in the bead is already pressing against the ramp on its own, there is less room for the air to escape, building pressure inside the tire, and forcing the bead up the ramp into the bead shelf.

Tires with handspun, soft, and supple sidewalls lay flat (like Rene Herse, Vittoria Corsa) and do not hold their shape on their own. The beads do not spring out against the ramp in the rim. I have found multiple tricks to get these tires to seat.

- Use a tire lever to manually set the tire bead onto the tire shelf. It's almost like you are trying to take the tire off the rim, but instead just slide the lever around the wheel and drop the tire bead right into the bead shelf. Do this on both sides for about a quarter to half turn each side of the valve. This helps the air distribute around the inside of the tire evenly, instead of just escaping immediately from under the bead beside the valve.
- Use an air compressor. The air compressor doesn't get tired, and continues pumps air volume faster than it can escape around the bead.
- Insert sealant before getting the bead to set. I've had several difficult tires that set the beads instantly after just adding sealant and sloshing it around.
- Install the tire first with an innertube. Inflate the tube until the tire bead pops into place. Leave overnight. Carefully remove the tube from only one side of the tire, leaving the opposite bead set into the bead shelf. See first point about manually setting some of the bead around the valve on the side from which the innertube was removed.
- Use rim tape. Install the tire normally. The rim tape takes up some of the space between the bead and the ramp, retricting the airflow, and retaining that pressure inside the tire.

I have gotten multiple Rene Herse EL casing tires to install on several different wheels with no problem by just manually setting some of the bead with a tire lever. No tape required. Not all the above tricks are required together, but more difficult tires may need several tricks in combination.

The ride quality of the soft sidewalls is absolutely worth the minor installation quirks.

This is an interesting theory but respectfully I think you're incorrect. I've had issues with one of their tires out in the middle of nowhere and had to add a tube, because although I was able to seat the bead at home, it was hopeless in the field because it was so loose. There's nothing to lose by adding more tape IMO, and it makes a more reliable seal in the end. I also think the bead may have stretched a little bit on my tires. At any rate if you can freely spin the tire around the rim it's too loose no matter what the justification. If the reason other tires inflate easier is the sidewall, then you'd think it wouldn't be impossible to spin them on the rim, however the bead itself is on there TIGHT, well beyond any springing force provided by the sidewall. Something to think about WRT your theory.

[ryanw]

Supple sidewalls have no negative effects when seating.

Having owned RH EL tyres, they have been super easy to seat with just a track pump, let alone a compressor.

I've had a couple blow off my MCFK rims due to small rim / large tyre issues. Added a third wrap of tape and all has been stable since.

[allrandomletters]

This is not my theory. It is my experience with the tires, and it is common with other tires with soft sidewalls. Just read some of the notes from BRR when they review any tire with handspun supple sidewalls and casings. Listen to Jarno:

Mounting the Corsa Race TLR was relatively easy as it went onto the rim very easily. Inflation was a bit harder as we couldn't inflate it with a simple floor pump but needed to use our compressor. With the compressor, it was easy as we could still leave the valve core in place.

We've had tires on this rim that wouldn't even inflate with the valve core removed, 10 bars of compressed air, and sealant all over the place

There are more experiences like this with other tires even all over this forum. Look in any thread about tires with cotton or cotton-like sidewalls: Veloflex, Vittoria, Challenge HLTRs, or this thread on Rene Herse tires.

Tire beads or wheels that do not follow the standard ERTO are defective and should be returned to the manufacturer. It is no surprise that defective wheels/tire combinations fail. I have had tires with stiff sidewalls blow off rims, spin on the rim, and still be easy to inflate with just a couple presses of a track pump.

Tires with soft sidewalls can be difficult to install, but still be perfectly in spec and ridden for thousands of km with no issues.

I am trying to share how to get perfectly good tires installed tubeless. I am not talking about defective tires with stretchy beads or tires that are outside of specification, because that it entirely unrelated to why a tire with a soft sidewall sometimes takes extra finesse to install.

[ryanw]

It's normally 99/100 times the person holding the tyre that is the problem, not the tyre, be it corespun or not.

I've fitted "impossible to fit" tyres in seconds. I'm not a hero, just understand tubeless methodologies.

[spartacus]

This is not my theory. It is my experience with the tires, and it is common with other tires with soft sidewalls. Just read some of the notes from BRR when they review any tire with handspun supple sidewalls and casings. Listen to Jarno:

Mounting the Corsa Race TLR was relatively easy as it went onto the rim very easily. Inflation was a bit harder as we couldn't inflate it with a simple floor pump but needed to use our compressor. With the compressor, it was easy as we could still leave the valve core in place.

We've had tires on this rim that wouldn't even inflate with the valve core removed, 10 bars of compressed air, and sealant all over the place

There are more experiences like this with other tires even all over this forum. Look in any thread about tires with cotton or cotton-like sidewalls: Veloflex, Vittoria, Challenge HLTRs, or this thread on Rene Herse tires.

Tire beads or wheels that do not follow the standard ERTO are defective and should be returned to the manufacturer. It is no surprise that defective wheels/tire combinations fail. I have had tires with stiff sidewalls blow off rims, spin on the rim, and still be easy to inflate with just a couple presses of a track pump.

Tires with soft sidewalls can be difficult to install, but still be perfectly in spec and ridden for thousands of km with no issues.

I am trying to share how to get perfectly good tires installed tubeless. I am not talking about defective tires with stretchy beads or tires that are outside of specification, because that it entirely unrelated to why a tire with a soft sidewall sometimes takes extra finesse to install.

I dunno man if the bead is tight it shouldn't matter how supple the sideall is because it's forming a seal of sorts. I seated 650x48c ultradynamico cava race tires easily with a normal pump and those have the biggest and softest sidewalls I've ever seen. It's also hard to take advice from people that manage to get sealant all over the place - why people don't seat the bead then put in the sealant through the valve is beyond me. Lastly not every tire is built to that standard and I was reading a post on another forum by Jan Heine himself where he said there's no real standard so they decided to make their tires the way they are (loose).

Have a look at this thread - https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthre ... 7&t=261818

[allrandomletters]

Odd. Why read what someone on some forum said that they heard something that Jan Heine say? Why not go to Jan's website and see for yourself?

https://www.renehersecycles.com/enve-an ... rse-tires/

We tested a number of tires and rims, and Enve also tested multiple samples of our tires with all four different casings: Standard, Extralight, Endurance, Endurance Plus – more than 16 tires total. Enve tested the bead length, bead stiffness, casing stiffness, blow-off pressure and a number of other parameters.

Now the official report is in: Our high-performance tires have passed Enve’s tests with flying colors – confirming what we’ve found ourselves. Rene Herse tires (all casings) are safe to use with Enve rims. For tubeless installations, you need tubeless-compatible tires (marked ‘TC’). And don’t exceed the maximum of 60 psi (4.1 bar) that we recommend for tubeless tires – plenty for most gravel and all-road applications. The actual blow-off pressures are much higher, but we really don’t want to take any risks.

Enve also confirmed that the diameter of our Rene Herse tires is very consistent, so there is little danger of getting a tire that fits poorly because it’s a bit on the large side. Together with the close tolerances of Enve’s hookless rims, this creates a predictable, secure fit of the tire on the rim.

Sounds like Jan is closely following the same industry standards that are used by Enve and Zipp.

I checked out your thread, but it's hard to take advice from people who can't manage to mount tires /s.

[spartacus]

Odd. Why read what someone on some forum said that they heard something that Jan Heine say? Why not go to Jan's website and see for yourself?

https://www.renehersecycles.com/enve-an ... rse-tires/

We tested a number of tires and rims, and Enve also tested multiple samples of our tires with all four different casings: Standard, Extralight, Endurance, Endurance Plus – more than 16 tires total. Enve tested the bead length, bead stiffness, casing stiffness, blow-off pressure and a number of other parameters.

Now the official report is in: Our high-performance tires have passed Enve’s tests with flying colors – confirming what we’ve found ourselves. Rene Herse tires (all casings) are safe to use with Enve rims. For tubeless installations, you need tubeless-compatible tires (marked ‘TC’). And don’t exceed the maximum of 60 psi (4.1 bar) that we recommend for tubeless tires – plenty for most gravel and all-road applications. The actual blow-off pressures are much higher, but we really don’t want to take any risks.

Enve also confirmed that the diameter of our Rene Herse tires is very consistent, so there is little danger of getting a tire that fits poorly because it’s a bit on the large side. Together with the close tolerances of Enve’s hookless rims, this creates a predictable, secure fit of the tire on the rim.

Sounds like Jan is closely following the same industry standards that are used by Enve and Zipp.

I checked out your thread, but it's hard to take advice from people who can't manage to mount tires /s.

Jan explicitly said there isn't an agreed upon standard, then goes about testing the tires on oddball hookless rims with a small list of approved tires, waves hands, and says my work here is done. Got it. (I'll spell it out for you, it means (and Jan said this) the tire will be loose on certain rims).

If you read the thread, which you didn't I'm assuming, Jan also explicitly said their beads can/do stretch "once" after the initial seating, then do not stretch further. That goes against what you said before and is straight from the source (Jan).

[allrandomletters]

That goes against what you said before and is straight from the source (Jan).

. . . in my experience the bead can stretch a little after a while so either add tape so they are TIGHT or use another tire

Jan also explicitly said their beads can/do stretch "once" after the initial seating, then do not stretch further.

[spartacus]

That goes against what you said before and is straight from the source (Jan).

. . . in my experience the bead can stretch a little after a while so either add tape so they are TIGHT or use another tire

Jan also explicitly said their beads can/do stretch "once" after the initial seating, then do not stretch further.

What the hell are you even trying to say? You said "There is no problem with bead stretch or bead diameter on Rene Herse tires in my experience." I said, the bead stretches, and Jan said the bead stretches.