SPD & knee pain

Especially for light weight issues concerning cyclocross / touring bikes & parts.

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TheKaiser
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

AJS914 wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:06 pm
On these shoes I cannot slide the cleat laterally but I could try a washer on one side.
Forgot to add, if you are looking to experiment on the cheap, you can cut some slices out of milk jugs, laundry detergent bottles, etc... You will likely find a tapered wall thickness on certain sections that meets your wedging needs. Keep in mind that the plastic will compress a bit, so you will need to compensate for that with additional material to end up at the final position you desire. That's true of proper BFS shims as well, which is part of the reason they make their cleat with the built in wedge too.

by Weenie


AJS914
Posts: 2121
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

My shoes are Specialized bg Comp shoes.

TheKaiser
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

AJS914 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:34 am
My shoes are Specialized bg Comp shoes.
Oh, that is interesting. I thought they looked like Specialized shoes from the photo of the sole, but couldn't be sure. Specialized BG shoes have a built in varus wedge, as you might know, which could account for what you are feeling. It can be difficult to tell oneself, without an outside perspective, but, do you notice your knee tracking significantly medially or laterally of your foot on the downstroke? For instance, is your knee close in to the top tube, or outboard in a sort of mildly bowlegged posture?

AJS914
Posts: 2121
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

Definitely more outboard with these shoes/pedals compared to my road shoes (Spec S-Works & Time pedals).

That's interesting what you said about a built-in varus wedge in the shoes. I'm also using an insole with an arch. I could be getting too much wedge with a combination of the shoes, the insole and spd pedals.

mattr
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

BG shoes :D I can't even stand in those without foot pain.

TheKaiser
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

AJS914 wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:23 am
Definitely more outboard with these shoes/pedals compared to my road shoes (Spec S-Works & Time pedals).

That's interesting what you said about a built-in varus wedge in the shoes. I'm also using an insole with an arch. I could be getting too much wedge with a combination of the shoes, the insole and spd pedals.
Specialized builds in the wedge because they say somewhere around 90% of cyclists benefit from it, but you might be part of the other 10%.

The only snag in that hypothesis is that your road shoes should have the same built in varus wedge, and they agree with you just fine. On the surface, that doesn't make sense, however it could be a situation where the 1.5-degree wedge on the MTB shoe ends up pushing you past the balance point where they shoe then tips outward, which suddenly makes the angulation jump up to 5-degrees, or something of that nature. Canceling out that varus wedge with an equal valgus wedge, or picking up a new pair of shoes with a flat sole would both be reasonable places to start. For the arch support, a general rule of thumb is you should feel it, and it should support your arch, but it shouldn't distort your arch area upward or feel highly intrusive. The feel of the arch support should disappear after a few minutes riding. If you have more than that, you are right, the arch support might be contributing to the outward rocking, but if you feel like it is pretty on target, then leave it alone for now and try the reverse wedge first. Messing about with arch supports is actually something that is easy to do while out on a ride, so that could be a good thing to try mid ride if the cleat wedge isn't getting you where you want to be.

I had a pair of Specialized BG road shoes and SPD-SL pedals many years ago. Had picked up the shoes a few weeks prior to a week long tour after being in Shimano shoes for years prior. Started suffering knee pain on day 2, and had to rig up a valgus wedge in the hotel room from sliced up bottles to neutralize the shoes varus which allowed me to keep riding. Things are a little more complex than just "Are you a wedge person or not" though, as whats going on at other points in the biomechanical chain can play a big role. As it turns out, I am using a quite a bit of wedging these days, and it agrees with me quite well, however it is with Speedplays, a lower saddle, and a shim on the right cleat to compensate for a functional leg length discrepancy, as well as more IT band stretching and better glute activation. Some combo of those other things totally changed the way in which my knee responded to the wedging, which is why I say don't assume that you can just transfer over a theoretical shoe setup from one situation to another. Start with the simple stuff, if that doesn't work then dig deeper, and stay open to the possibility that you might return to a previous setting down the line, once some other weak link has been remedied.

NickJHP
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am

by NickJHP

If you don't like float in pedals (I don't), then the new Speedplay Syzr pedal is a good option, as it allows you to reduce the float to nothing with the grubscrews in the cleat. If you do want float then it's achieved not by the cleat rotating on the pedal but by the outer section of the cleat rotating on the inner section. The cleat is hardened steel and has ears on either side that mate with the pedal body, so the stability is pretty good as well.

The main objection to them is if you use the float in the cleat - when you twist out to exit the pedal, the cleat remains rotated at that angle, and you have to put your foot at the same angle to clip back in. As I have the adjustment screws in the cleat all the way in so there's no float, I don't encounter this problem. The pedals are also available with longer (and shorter) spindles - I have one pair with 10mm longer spindles to use with an older pair of cranks that have completely straight arms - and you can also apparently get them with additional lift in one of the pedals to compensate if you have a leg length discrepancy.

Image

mattr
Posts: 3591
Joined: Fri May 25, 2007 6:43 pm
Location: The Grim North.

by mattr

This is about rock. Not float.

NickJHP
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:22 am

by NickJHP

mattr wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:16 am
This is about rock. Not float.
Well, for me the Syzr doesn't rock sideways either. The ears on either side of the cleat sit on corresponding steel sections of the pedal body.

AJS914
Posts: 2121
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 6:52 pm

by AJS914

I think the issue is the shoes with the built-in varus wedging. I want to thank the Kaiser for the tip. I've noticed that even on my road shoes (S-works) I've noticed my knees tracking a little bow legged. I've had no kneed pain and the shoes are super comfortable so it hasn't been a problem.

As an experiment, I put a 1.5 degee valgus wedge in my road shoes and road the trainer. It felt good and my knees tracked more straight up and down.

I think the effect on my mountain shoes is even greater and giving me knee paint. It could be a combination of the shoes plus the spd pedals allowing tilt to the outside.

I rode Time and Carnac shoes for like 20 years before I bought these Specialized shoes. I believe the Time and Carnacs were more neutral. I never had a problem and have never had knee pain during 30+ years of serious cycling.

TheKaiser
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:29 pm

by TheKaiser

AJS914 wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:56 pm
I think the issue is the shoes with the built-in varus wedging. I want to thank the Kaiser for the tip. I've noticed that even on my road shoes (S-works) I've noticed my knees tracking a little bow legged. I've had no kneed pain and the shoes are super comfortable so it hasn't been a problem.

As an experiment, I put a 1.5 degee valgus wedge in my road shoes and road the trainer. It felt good and my knees tracked more straight up and down.

I think the effect on my mountain shoes is even greater and giving me knee paint. It could be a combination of the shoes plus the spd pedals allowing tilt to the outside.

I rode Time and Carnac shoes for like 20 years before I bought these Specialized shoes. I believe the Time and Carnacs were more neutral. I never had a problem and have never had knee pain during 30+ years of serious cycling.
Glad to hear you are making progress so quickly! :beerchug: Yeah, pretty much any other brand of shoe "should" be neutral. I say "should" because no one else markets their shoes as having any built in cant the way that Specialized does and, for the most part, shoes generally seem pretty neutral, however every so often I have seen some that visually seemed to have a bit of cant to them, even if the manufacturer wasn't touting it. The catch is that it is very difficult to accurately measure these things, as you need a reference reading from inside the shoe, which is both a confined space and irregularly contoured. It's easier with companies that do a flat last board inside the shoe and get all the contouring from the insole, as opposed to companies that build contouring for the arch etc...right into the shoe itself.

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