Rip off dogma

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
5 8 5
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by 5 8 5

markyboy wrote:Some mug bought it for £1100

Ouch!

by Weenie


markyboy
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by markyboy

ultimobici wrote:
markyboy wrote:Some mug bought it for £1100
No different to the mugs who pay top dollar for Cervelos, Pinarellos & other high priced Chinese built frames.

Well at least if you buy a branded name a pay lots for it,it will at least have warranty and so on.
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ultimobici
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by ultimobici

markyboy wrote:
ultimobici wrote:
markyboy wrote:Some mug bought it for £1100
No different to the mugs who pay top dollar for Cervelos, Pinarellos & other high priced Chinese built frames.

Well at least if you buy a branded name a pay lots for it,it will at least have warranty and so on.
On the face of it, true. But having dealt with a few Cervelo & Cannondale warranty claims, I wonder what value that is.

Look at the cost disparity between Cervelo's S3 and Specialized's S-Works Venge. Both are cutting edge frames that are used at Protour level, yet there's a £1000 premium on the S3 despite it being Chinese built and the Venge being Taiwanese built. If anything the differential should be reversed. When it comes to warranty, the Specialized has a proper warranty that is honoured with zero fuss - if it is faulty they replace it. The same cannot be said of Cervelo unfortunately, one has to kick and scream on behalf of the customer to get a fair decision.

ParisCarbon
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by ParisCarbon

Replica yes as it states....

Im not up on the legal mumbo jumbo.... BUT can someone legitmately paint a well known companys logo on a fake product and even resell it legally??? Replica or not.. someone has painted Pinarellos name on it and is selling it for profit.... If I was Pinarello Id be pulling the sue card!!

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prendrefeu
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by prendrefeu

It depends: has Cicli Pinarello, S.p.A, registered the name "Pinarello" as a trademark in the UK ?
They may also want to register the name "Dogma" and "Prince" (although the latter may be difficult)
If so, yes they can sue.
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elviento
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by elviento

And after all these discussions, people still think: Dogma Rip offs = all Chinese carbon frames (you can get on ebay).

This is really sad.

Ultimobici, let's not focus on the cost but more on the product. It's like a restaurant owner saves cost by cutting the dish washing staff so dishes are not thoroughly cleaned. The cost difference is small (say $0.2 per dish) but having the previous customer's spit in your mouthis huge. Running a tight QC system may not cost THAT much (let's say $30 per frame, just a random guess) but the end result is huge.

Another thing is, many people on ww seem to be accomplished engineers or tech-types, but they refuse to understand or accept the fact that the commercial world works in certain ways. Advertisement and sponsorships simply work. Without Tour champs riding Pinarello's across lines and without the extravagant Eurobike/Interbike showcases, Pinarello could very well be some obscure little brand nobody wants to knock off, and probably sells 500 frames a year instead of 300,000. We are all affected by it, and no body can escape. We would all like to think we are the pure meritocrats who get the objectively best bike free of gimmicks and hype. But we can't escape hype... Anyone care to show Cervelo's R&D budget v. marketing budget each year (including sponsorships, shows, etc.)? I bet if Pinarello were to cut the Dogma's price by 50%, they'd be losing money on this model (even though there appears to be an abscene profit if you compare with the OEM price). Too many things need to be done and they cost money. Whoever these guys choose to knock off, will certainly have spent huge amounts to sponsor pro teams, etc.

Sorry enough heavy duty stuff for one post. Carry on...

petepeterson wrote:Topic has been discussed at length over hundreds of pages of RBR forums. I am not going to try to win anyone over here but I think if these frames were 'murdering' people at a frequency greater than branded bikes we would be hearing about them. Sure it's cheesy buying a fake pina but personally I find it very irritating when I read fear mongering of failure based on speculation and stereotyping. And really do you think people are going to jail for buying 'counterfeit' bicycles? Only in America as they say...


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-carbon-thread-ebay-direct-version-5-0-a-241785.html
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bikedoc
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by bikedoc

and you seem to forget that not all 'fakes' are the same, some are bad some are as good as the 'real' thing

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andy2
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by andy2

Using someones registered and established trademark and logotype on a copy is a criminal offence in quite a few EU countries.
If Italy had a goverent they would be the ones to take Pinarellos complaint to the EU.
Even bringing in a fake LV handbag into France is an arrestable offence. Just read the 'we will shoot anyone with fake French stuff on site' signs at the airport!
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stephenkchang
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by stephenkchang

stephenkchang wrote:I have no problem with frames made in Asia and that include ones branded such as Cervelo, real Pina, Specialized, etc. What i have issues with is passing it off as real why bother. They should just create a brand name of their own and let consumer decide but not call it Pina or Colnago that's just bad. I know when something is called a replicate it's fake but why bother that's just retarded. Give it a brand and market it. In terms of quality i have to admit there's a lot of poor quality stuff from China but you get what you pay for and this is not a bad thing. I for one would not want everything to be high quality and expensive. I rather have a choice than not. If you don't have the money to spent why wouldnt i buy one of these 2.5lb carbon bikes from China. Last week i was training for my first cross race of the season. My Colnago cracked in 2 places and this is a real Colnago not one from the motherland. I have 3 Colnagos 2 C50 one cross and one road. I also have a EPS. I'm having my sponsor shop deal with them. I hope they make good to a loyal customer and replace it. I'll report back.


UPDATE
I was told by the store manager that he spoke to the Colnago rep and the bike is in the process of being sent back to Italy. It seems Colnago is in the process of replacing my broken frame. i will keep you updated on the service i'm getting.

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by andyindo

Be interesting to see how long they take to repair. My C40 got sent back and it took months!

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Rumsas
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by Rumsas


celeste55
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by celeste55

where is this infamous "newspaper" thread?
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Phill P
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by Phill P

nice looking paint jobs on some of these fakes.

Chinese government has started taking a more serious stance with Chinese fakes. They now have industries to protect.

I can't see why somebody would go to sooo much effort to reproduce molds, design the copy paint jobs and decals, and put the whole thing together. The amount of effort required to then make as much as if the product was just painted matt black off an open mold.

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by lone wheeler

Paint jobs look top notch!

petepeterson
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by petepeterson

I'm sorry to make you sad and I'm sorry if this appears as trolling but do you have specific info that the quality is really so bad on these frames?? I think all of us understand the economics of a global marketing program. I also I agree that replication of a brand lands somewhere on tacky, unethical, or illegal depending on geography - no issue with that - but where are the facts that the production on the pinas is really so poor? I think that people order these things with certain expectations and for the most part they are exceeded. I know mine were with both chinese frames I ordered (not knock-offs). Not at all trying to troll here I'm actually quite interested if you have the information because I haven't seen it specifically addressing the dogma/prince frames....

I'd also love to hear what phallenthoul has to say on this...

elviento wrote:And after all these discussions, people still think: Dogma Rip offs = all Chinese carbon frames (you can get on ebay).

This is really sad.


petepeterson wrote:Topic has been discussed at length over hundreds of pages of RBR forums. I am not going to try to win anyone over here but I think if these frames were 'murdering' people at a frequency greater than branded bikes we would be hearing about them. Sure it's cheesy buying a fake pina but personally I find it very irritating when I read fear mongering of failure based on speculation and stereotyping. And really do you think people are going to jail for buying 'counterfeit' bicycles? Only in America as they say...


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/bikes-frames-forks/chinese-carbon-thread-ebay-direct-version-5-0-a-241785.html
Last edited by petepeterson on Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

by Weenie


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