An explanation on Ciamillo Brakes performance disparity.

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
ZeroG
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by ZeroG

Hi All,

Many have seen a disparity in reports of performance on my brakes. Some swear they are the best brakes they have ever used while others say they are lacking in power and difficult to setup... the disparity comes from setup exclusively. It is true that there are a few things that the mechanic needs to be aware of and optimize before and during installation. The goal of my design is to optimize the pull of the lever at the bar in the most compact, lightweight package possible... most brakes have a set amount of travel rate and a set amount of leverage. My brakes have a cam which optimizes the travel rate and leverage.. why? ... I think we should have a high travel rate at the beginning of the pull with low leverage because we are just closing the gap.. no power required here but a speedy rate of this event is highly beneficial especially if you are drafting tightly and response time is a factor in braking performance.. but then once the pads make contact with the rim, there is no longer a need for high travel rate.. you are already there and what you need now is power. The cam in my system does this and works very well as long as they are setup properly. Here are the conditions which adversely affect the performance of my system and an explanation as to why:

1. Rims are too wide .. in addition to not having a comfortable gap, the cam gets stuck in the high travel rate/low leverage portion of the curve.. the brake "thinks" it's closing on air and never gets a chance see the high leverage portion. This explains also why some people who have had this situation find an improvement once the pads wear down a bit and the cam is allowed to climb. For this condition we make low-profile and super-low-profile padholders in addition to an extra-wide cam which gives a total of 6 optimization options to dial in any rim.

2. Rims that are too narrow.. the problem here is quite troublesome but has an easy, inexpensive fix. What happens here is that the cam stroke is used up in closing the gap and although the pads make contact with the rim, the cam bottoms out and power is completely shut off. This condition is what I believe to be the most common cause of poor braking reports found on the net and other media. It is a subtle error in that you may have contact and may have 60, 70, or 80% of pressure applied before the cam bottoms out so this is a condition that is hard to detect unless you know what you are looking for... to determine if this condition exists, the easiest thing to do is to squeeze the lever all the way to the bar and check to see if the cam bottoms out (rises and hits the underside of the arm where the barrel adjuster exits). The solution for this problem is to install our double-sided spherical washers which will space out your padholders, will close the gap, and will optimize your cam.

The only other setup issue with our system is proper housing length as we have a floating balanced spring. The best way to get the housing length proper is to drape the housing, with the cable in it, down next to the barrel adjuster of the centered brake (cable is not installed) make a mark on the housing where it looks like it would terminate in the barrel adjuster and cut it there.

One other thing that I would like to add... the Gravitas has not been tested in any brake test review but we are working to change that. Please feel free to contact me with any setup questions. I try to get back to everyone as quickly as possible and I know a few on this forum are frustrated with me due to slow response.. I am trying to be better at this.

Thanks,

Ted
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doozer
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Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:24 am
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by doozer

Ted.. Ta muchly for weighing in through the WW bitchin' :thumbup:

can you give us a definition of rims that are too wide or too narrow? will this be the same for the zero G, Neg G and gravitas units?

Dooz :mrgreen:

(I run standard zero-Gs BTW on Reynold cirro mid-v wheels, swisstop yellow but actually grey Lightweight edition pads)
Dance you cares away, worries for another day, dance your cares away, down at fragglerock.

by Weenie


ZeroG
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by ZeroG

There is a partial list of rim widths on our site... generally, the standard padholders work with rims from 19-22mm, low-profile from 23-26mm, and super from 26 to 29.. the new Firecrest wheels may be a problem even with super-lows... it depends somewhat on the mounting hole placement on the fork/seatstay as to where on the rim it strikes as the taper in the rim at the very top is too wide. In this case the extra-wide cam is to be used. This is only the case for Neg G and Gravitas.. no problem should occur on Zero G model and as a result the extra-wide cam is not made for that model.

http://cycling.ciamillo.com/

spartan
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Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2004 2:52 am

by spartan

ted,

solution is to post detailed youtube videos on how to setup zerog products.
Current Rides:

2017 Giant TCR Advanced SL 0 DI2 9150

ellipsesx
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:20 pm

by ellipsesx

spartan wrote:ted,

solution is to post detailed youtube videos on how to setup zerog products.


Yesssss,indeed that would be great :D

ZeroG
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by ZeroG

I agree.. thanks, I will work on that.

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CourageousLion
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by CourageousLion

ZeroG wrote:2. Rims that are too narrow.. the problem here is quite troublesome but has an easy, inexpensive fix. What happens here is that the cam stroke is used up in closing the gap and although the pads make contact with the rim, the cam bottoms out and power is completely shut off. This condition is what I believe to be the most common cause of poor braking reports found on the net and other media. It is a subtle error in that you may have contact and may have 60, 70, or 80% of pressure applied before the cam bottoms out so this is a condition that is hard to detect unless you know what you are looking for... to determine if this condition exists, the easiest thing to do is to squeeze the lever all the way to the bar and check to see if the cam bottoms out (rises and hits the underside of the arm where the barrel adjuster exits). The solution for this problem is to install our double-sided spherical washers which will space out your padholders, will close the gap, and will optimize your cam.


Ted,
Why can't you simply pull the cam up a bit on the cable and then close the arms some and then lock the cable down at that point? Maybe we all do need to see a video!
None are more hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free...

thisisatest
Shop Owner
Posts: 1980
Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2009 4:02 am
Location: NoVA/DC

by thisisatest

-do the double sided spherical washers come stock with your brakes?
-why are the brake calipers not designed for the widest option, then have different thickness (or stackable) spherical washers to accommodate narrower rims?
-why, on the zeroG and negG, do the brake arms run directly on the center bolt, without any bushing material? i know you guys offer a tune-up program. are the arms replaced, or is the slop taken up by other means?
-why does the top of the cam drag directly on the brake arm?
-why Campy pad holders? are you doing anything different now that Campy is using a different retension system?

thanks in advance.

EightFiveTwo
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:23 am

by EightFiveTwo

spartan wrote:ted,

solution is to post detailed youtube videos on how to setup zerog products.


AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!! A short straight to the point vid will take you a LONGGGGG way----What's taking the company so long to figure that out??

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Juanmoretime
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by Juanmoretime

Ted thank you for the post. This is great information.

I know a few have critiqued the performance of the Gravitas and owning the first production pair made I know that its not just a simple put them on your bike and go to have superb braking. There are a many elements that need to be 100% correct to get 100% of what the brake is capable of doing. Compressionless housing is a must and the housing length is very critical. Proper routing of the housing and a quality cable that runs with very little friction in the housing liner. Proper torquing of all fasteners is quite important too. I also find that setting the pad farther away from the rim and allowing more lever pull allows the lever to do what its supposed to do makes a huge difference too.

Yes, you can just bolt up a pair of Dura Ace or Campagnolo brakes and have everything wrong and still have the brakes work well but this is Weight Weenies. So having to do some careful set up to have performance and much less weight takes time and careful attention and is something that just goes with having a light bike.

After over two years of riding the Gravitas I still find it to be the finest brake I have ever ridden and can't wait to put the Gravitas SL on my bike hopefully soon!
RESIDENT GRUMPY OLD MAN.

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sugarkane
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by sugarkane

i've owned neg G's for a few years now and they really are not very hard to set up...
i can get my back wheel waving around in the air with 2 fingers... and i'm 85kgs
any one that thinks they lack power is or has a shitty mechanic

my only complaint is that Ciamillo deem it necessary to send the brakes back to the usa for over hauling...
i wouldn't mind a set of he new springs and to replace the shims and adjuster nuts but i'm not happy to have no brakes for 2-3 months while i send them back...

i have both the knowledge and the technology to take care of the refurb my self...

but if i wanted to run other brakes i'd have to re cable my bike or buy another set of zero's..

if you don't live in the usa the turn around time is woefully inadequate and will cost you the same again in the service in shipping alone..

please can we buy over haul kits..? i'm not american.. i won't and can't sue you if i don't install a new set of springs right

other option is maybe i can get a set of SLs to test while i send mine back for a service.. :D

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eliflap-scalpel
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by eliflap-scalpel

:beerchug: i love my brakes !

and please watch this video


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSfiJktdoUg
http://eliflap.it/

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StuTheWeak
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Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2011 11:29 pm
Location: Springdale, AR

by StuTheWeak

They, ZG, would stop me on a dime (240lbs) when adjusted properly. No other brakes/pads I've owned had that much stopping power.

Sad thing is my front caliper would go out of adjustment and get sticky without warning. Knowing me I was doing something wrong, but I could never figure it out.

It was the front caliper giving me 90% of the trouble. Think if the front caliper had the same strength spring as the rear caliper...it would have fixed the issue I was having.
Specialized Allez 06' "Rain Bike" 21.50lbs
Neuvation F100 11' "Road Bike" 16.80lbs
Specialized Tarmac Pro 11' "WW Bike" 14.25lbs

maxima
Posts: 348
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:37 am

by maxima

Ive a suggestion that you engineer a proper easy to install product before launching it WW. Not being in US and having yr dealer charge $250 a pop for service of the spring which in most cases doesn't last a year with heavy usage. Worst the spring itself is soft and been my cases of caliper not able to recoil back to initial position. Is it suppose to be replace for free? I sold yr caliper after it fails and yr agent try to rip a $250 profit for repair under a year. Honestly you sound like you trying very hard to make sure have customers educated correct. Once your products is out of your turf, I'm not sure the experiences is the same. I would say your reputation outside of US at my region is nothing short of similar to LEW. May I suggest for a premium product like yours, do get yr service and business model correct as we talking about one of the more expensive brakes out here

by Weenie


ellipsesx
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:20 pm

by ellipsesx

"........It was the front caliper giving me 90% of the trouble. Think if the front caliper had the same strength spring as the rear caliper...it would have fixed the issue I was having.[/quote]........"


Just like me,tried several outer en inner cables to solve this problem but never got the same stopping power as the rear.Even I switched the rear to the front to compare but no success.
I think the front is 70% from the rear.
I take very care to the setup,the cable length the barrel adjuster but somewhere and something must be go wrong.

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