Falco Bike Design Diary -- jersey and bibs out...

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
HarryS
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:16 pm

by HarryS

The ti bike is cool, but why is the top tube so low? I think the front end would be stronger and stiffer, not to mention look nicer if the top tube wasnt so close to the centre of the head tube.

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Juanmoretime
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by Juanmoretime

I do love the titanium bike. You had me until the hooded rear dropouts. I just don't like them in look function and weight. The dropouts on my R320 are just one of the most beautiful parts of the frame. King Inset headset?
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elviento
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by elviento

The rest of the geometry is really for my size 53 (51 c-c), so it's more of a "tall head tube" version. The headtube is effectively extended by about 20mm, I did not raise the top tube junction in order not to disrupt the rest of the geometry, considering the top tube is 53.8cm only. But I do hear you and will play with the geometry a bit more...

The rear dropouts save me over 50 grams, but I agree the sculpted version does look sweet.

The King Inset as I understand is an integrated (or half integrated) top cup, and a traditional lower cup. This one isn't. The King Inset would save me about 5% of the total cost of this frame, because you would be able to make the head tube cheaply. But it also comes with several disadvantages which won't require my elaboration.
Last edited by elviento on Fri May 04, 2012 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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reggiebaseball
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by reggiebaseball

Juanmoretime wrote:I do love the titanium bike. You had me until the hooded rear dropouts. I just don't like them in look function and weight. The dropouts on my R320 are just one of the most beautiful parts of the frame. King Inset headset?


BreeZer style dropouts provide more surface area for welding on the seat tube and chainstays, that is the functional reason.
aesthetically they are uber-butch and say "my bike kicks ass" like a Moots or Pegoretti.

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Calnago
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by Calnago

Hats off to you Elviento, For as much work as you've done on your carbon prototypes, it's this titatanium frame that really catches my eye. It looks "right". It's got clean lines and looks well proportioned, with a proper amount of slope on the top tube, but that's just a personal thing. I prefer traditional "non-sloping" frames (I ride a larger size), but on the smaller frames a sloping geometry probably works a bit better in a lot of cases. I think you might have raised the top tube just a bit as someone else suggested, and that wouldn't change the geometry (angles and overall dimensions would remain the same), but overall it looks good as is.
I would agree with Junamoretime on the dropouts however. Those may be functional from a welders perspective but not from the riders perspective. They are a pain in the ass for a lot of skewers and makes it pretty much impossible to position your skewer lever between the chainstay and the seatstay. Even in the picture, it looks like an awkward positioning of your skewer. And those dropouts can often interfere with a lot of trainers as well, if you should want to use one at any time.

Did you build the frame from scratch as in cut and mitre the tubes and weld it up yourself, etc? Nice job.
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bones
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by bones

elviento wrote:Here are some pictures of the titanium bike I built.

Interesting enough to make Michael Pryde come by my booth 3 times during the Shanghai Bike Show...



Seriously. How many people do you need to get a batch of carbon, or Ti, road disc framesets going? I'll go on other forums and recruit people. I don't care. I, and I know of others as well that want one. The pinnacle is that damn hot Colnago carbon road disc bike. Problem is that it is not available. Other problem is that sourcing a true 367mm or 370mm carbon road disc fork is impossible, but there are rumors of Enve possibly making one for next year.

BTW, what happened to your rear shift cable in the seat stay thing. That was cool. Too bad isnt on the Ti frame where I think it would be more useful as more people are likely to take their Ti bikes for some dirt road riding, and full housing keeps the dirt out.

BTW2, is that a tapered steerer tube on that ti frame?

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elviento
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by elviento

Colnago, I m glad you like ti frame. The geometry replicates the carbon bike, except the seat cluster is 5mm higher due to the abcense of a curve in the top tube. On the head tube, I will raise the junction by 3mm in the next frame. I agree re the dropouts, fortunately you can weld different dropouts onto the frame, unlike with carbon.

Let me clarify, the frame is my design, but I wouldn't take the credit away from a welder with over a decade of experience. This was welded in the same place that makes the VN ti frames. I was having tea with the head of this company (and soon to be owner, because the Chinese Aerospace Ministry might privatize this factory away from its materials research center) and he goes, "you know, my best welder could do MOOTS level welding if we wanted to". And I held him to that. In the end, frankly I think it came pretty close(sand blasting would have shown it better), as the best welder and the best equipment was used on this frame. But the reason we fell slightly short was that the Voltage of power supply in China is slightly less stable than in the US, so even though the equipment used for this frame was very high quality, we didn't fully achieve the plan, but it's still very high quality already.


Bones
, the R&D of a carbon frame is fairly time consuming so I'd say depending on the price, I will PM you on the details. The frame will look like my carbon frame (to minimize the amount of new 3D drawing or risk factor for the buyer). If anyone is interested, you could also contact Bones (or me). The other is sourcing the relevant parts, which I don't know much of.

BTW, the shifting cable routing is also on the ti frame. I just need my cargo back from the Shanghai to take a few pics. In an age where Cervelo will charge $4K extra for 50g saved, it'd be dumb not to take advantage of this sort of weight savings. Let alone smoother shifting. I am tempted to run a test fairwheel style, but I haven't because 1. it's fairly obvious as it's "shorter cable and less bend" (as NeilPryde's designer put it in Shanghai), 2. it's better for an independent source to run that sort of test.
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53x12
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by 53x12

bones wrote:
elviento wrote:Here are some pictures of the titanium bike I built.

Interesting enough to make Michael Pryde come by my booth 3 times during the Shanghai Bike Show...



Seriously. How many people do you need to get a batch of carbon, or Ti, road disc framesets going? I'll go on other forums and recruit people. I don't care. I, and I know of others as well that want one. The pinnacle is that damn hot Colnago carbon road disc bike. Problem is that it is not available. Other problem is that sourcing a true 367mm or 370mm carbon road disc fork is impossible, but there are rumors of Enve possibly making one for next year.

BTW, what happened to your rear shift cable in the seat stay thing. That was cool. Too bad isnt on the Ti frame where I think it would be more useful as more people are likely to take their Ti bikes for some dirt road riding, and full housing keeps the dirt out.

BTW2, is that a tapered steerer tube on that ti frame?



There are already pics of the Enve disc brake fork on a Ritte CX bike. Won't take much design change.
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."

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Liggero
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by Liggero

Dear elviento,

awesome frame. Finally someone did a frame with a long head tube so there are no need for spacers. Housing into the headtube rules. Very good. Graphics stinks. They are so so bad that everyone would order it with no decals. I have some free time now for 4 months, I´m a designer. Contact me if you want me to help you with the logos design. Best regards.
Last edited by Liggero on Sun May 06, 2012 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Happy Trails !!!

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Wingnut
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by Wingnut

Liggero wrote:Dear elviento,

awesome frame. Finally someone did a frame with a long head tube so there are no need for spacers. Housing into the headtube rules. Very good. Graphics stinks. They are so so bad that everyone would order it with no decals. I have some free time now for 4 months, I´m a designer now studying at TU Delft in The Netherlands. Contact me if you want me to help you with the logos design. Best regards.


Wonderful, an opinionated designer!

I really don't think your designing ideals apply to "everyone" either...free time for 4 months, great! Another 4 months of this vomit...
"It's not the destination...it's the ride!"

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53x12
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by 53x12

Wingnut wrote: Another 4 months of this vomit...



What is with all the hate in this thread?
"Marginal gains are the only gains when all that's left to gain is in the margins."

BmanX
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by BmanX

Because those who can't complain about it in many ways and one of them being hate.
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thisisatest
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by thisisatest

would you mind taking a pic of the rear derailleur routing by the seat tube? did you use a small tube as a guide? its unclear right now.

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Wingnut
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by Wingnut

53x12 wrote:
Wingnut wrote: Another 4 months of this vomit...



What is with all the hate in this thread?


I like this particular thread, the bikes and the insight to it all...I just get sick & tired of the way people impose their ideals...
"It's not the destination...it's the ride!"

bones
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by bones

53x12 wrote:
bones wrote:
elviento wrote:Here are some pictures of the titanium bike I built.

Interesting enough to make Michael Pryde come by my booth 3 times during the Shanghai Bike Show...



Seriously. How many people do you need to get a batch of carbon, or Ti, road disc framesets going? I'll go on other forums and recruit people. I don't care. I, and I know of others as well that want one. The pinnacle is that damn hot Colnago carbon road disc bike. Problem is that it is not available. Other problem is that sourcing a true 367mm or 370mm carbon road disc fork is impossible, but there are rumors of Enve possibly making one for next year.

BTW, what happened to your rear shift cable in the seat stay thing. That was cool. Too bad isnt on the Ti frame where I think it would be more useful as more people are likely to take their Ti bikes for some dirt road riding, and full housing keeps the dirt out.

BTW2, is that a tapered steerer tube on that ti frame?



There are already pics of the Enve disc brake fork on a Ritte CX bike. Won't take much design change.




Enve makes a cyclocross disc brake fork. They do not currently make a road disc brake fork. However, thanks to the fine R&D work of Carl @ Enve that may change soon. And a carbon disc brake road fork may be in the lineup soon next year. A carbon tapered (1.5 - 1 1/8) steerer 367mm axle-to-crown height fork is precisely what is needed in the road market.

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