Enves new 6.7 wheels

Discuss light weight issues concerning road bikes & parts.
BrianAllan
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by BrianAllan

Discoverspeed wrote:If $3K includes the DT-190C hubs, then it becomes very interesting! :lol:


I believe that's going to be for the 240's. Retail pricing on the 190's is quite a jump ($500)! If we think about the retail pricing of the current ENVE tubular offerings ($2515) it looks like the retail cost has increased $250 per rim. This puts individual rims at a retail price of $1100 or so.

I'm quite excited about the 3.4's myself, but the significant increase in weight is not terribly appealing.
Last edited by BrianAllan on Thu May 19, 2011 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

uscswimming
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by uscswimming

bomber wrote:Any idea on whether they will make just the rims available rather than their 'pre-built' offering?


Yes they are offering rims only at a retail price of $975 per rim.

by Weenie


uscswimming
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by uscswimming

Discoverspeed wrote:If $3K includes the DT-190C hubs, then it becomes very interesting! :lol:


Here is retail with the different hubs:

190 - $3,475
240 - $2,900
King - $3,050

Quickdraw
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by Quickdraw

Something doesn't seem right here. Is labor for building a wheel really that expensive, especially when you factor in mark-up on parts? Okay, let's do the math on this.

uscswimming wrote:
Discoverspeed wrote:If $3K includes the DT-190C hubs, then it becomes very interesting! :lol:


Here is retail with the different hubs:

190 - $3,475
240 - $2,900
King - $3,050


So the wheels are $2,900 with DT 240's and $3,050 with Chis King hubs.

bomber wrote:Yes they are offering rims only at a retail price of $975 per rim.


Excel Sports sells the DT 240 hubs for $329.95 for the rear hub and $164.95 for the front hub, which comes out to $494.90 for the set. Excel Sports sells the Chris King hubs (either the original or the new R45) for $369.00 for the rear hub and $169.00 for the front hub, which comes out to $538.00 for the set.

For the sake of comparison, Fairwheel Bikes sells the DT 240 hubs for $395 for the rear hub and $195 for the front hub, which comes out to $590 for the set. Fairwheel Bikes sells the Chris King hubs (the new R45) for $369.00 for the rear hub and $169.00 for the front hub, which comes out to $538.00 for the set.

Fairwheel Bikes lists the CX-Ray spokes at $3 per spoke or a black, J-bend spoke. If we assume 20 spokes for the front wheel and 24 spokes for the rear wheel, this comes out to $132 in spoke costs for the wheelset.

I am going to go way out on a limb here and assume that there is a mark-up over wholesale on the prices that Excel and Fairwheel charge for the parts. I doubt they sell them at cost, or as a loss-leader, and they are in business to make money, so they are making a profit on the parts, right? I would guess at least 20%? (($494.90 + $132 = 626.90) * 20% = $125.38 for the hubs and spokes?) And on the rims Enve would be getting profit at both the wholesale and retail level, so for the sake of argument let's say profit is 50% of the retail price? ($975 * 0.50 = $487.50 for each rim?)

Anyway, the cost on parts would break down as follows:

Rims: -----------------------------2 x $975 = $1,950
Hubs (DT Swiss 240 @ Excel price): --- $495 = $495
Spokes (C-Rays @ Fairwheel price): --- $132 = $132
Total for parts: ---------------------------- = $2,577

So this means they are charging $323 (i.e. $2,900 - $2,577) in labor to build a set of wheels with DT Swiss 240 hubs? And the labor price gets worse if you look at the King hubs. In that case the labor would be $430 (i.e. $3,050-$2,620). That strikes me as absurd! Keep in mind that they are already making a hefty profit on the parts; more than the standard wheelbuilder as Enve gets both retail and wholesale portions on the rims. A good wheelbuilder will charge something like $50 to $100 per wheel for labor. An operation like Enve should charge less, not more, for labor due to economies of scale. Take your pick: :unbelievable: or :o or :shock: or :noidea:

Just had to rant... These prices, especially the portions that can be attributed to the labor on the build, seem crazy when you consider the cost of the inputs. At the very least, buy the components separately and get them built locally or go to one of the builders (e.g. fairwheel, ergottWheels, Zen Cyclery, Troy Watson) that frequent this site. You'd be supporting an individual and saving money in the process.

BrianAllan
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by BrianAllan

Quickdraw, Excel is selling the 240's below retail, so add ~$100 in to your wheelset price. You also forgot nipples : p

My suspicion is this posted $975 retail price is incorrect. But I have no basis for that opinion aside from my earlier posting. Basically a complete wheelset now costs $500 more as the 6.7 build over the current offerings. I don't know why they'd increase their markup on components, so again, I would attribute that extra $500 to rims. So $250 + 875 = $1125 per rim.

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PDXWheels
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by PDXWheels

Very cool to see the next gen of stuff from edge. Def aiming for the big time.

My big question: If the design is so crucial, down to fractions of mm's, how do different hubs change the performance of the wheels? If you're really splitting aero hairs, wouldn't you need data sets from both builds?

Due to the weight, it's probably not a game changer in the road market, glad they're not phasing out the old stuff. I wish they'd release data on the older models.

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DIRT BOY
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by DIRT BOY

Discoverspeed wrote:If $3K includes the DT-190C hubs, then it becomes very interesting! :lol:


No, that's with 240 hubs. The 190 set will run $3475 MSRP
DIRT BOY

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cogsci
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by cogsci

I'm with quickdraw, seems pretty ludicrous.

Quickdraw
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by Quickdraw

PDXWheels wrote:Due to the weight, it's probably not a game changer in the road market, glad they're not phasing out the old stuff. I wish they'd release data on the older models.

In the graph for the Cannondale Super Six Hi-Mod they have a plot for a "Baseline carbon 40mm wheelset." Perhaps this is a wheel with their old Edge 1.38 rim? That would be roughly 40 mm in depth, as would their current 1.45 rim. Even if not their rim, the numbers would probably be similar? I agree with you, though, it would be nice to know how their old rims test, as well as an even lower rim, such as an ENVE 1.25 and an aluminum box section generic like a DT RR 465 or a Mavic Open Pro.

PDXWheels wrote:

My big question: If the design is so crucial, down to fractions of mm's, how do different hubs change the performance of the wheels? If you're really splitting aero hairs, wouldn't you need data sets from both builds?

Due to the weight, it's probably not a game changer in the road market, glad they're not phasing out the old stuff.


If you look at the graph for the Cannondale Super Six Hi-Mod, the Enve 3.4 splits the difference in drag between a Zipp 303 and a Zipp 404, with the 404 having the lowest drag. On the Specialized Tarmac the Enve 3.4 fares worse than the comparable depth Zipp 303 and 404's. And at a projected weight of 1,250 grams, the Enve 3.4 is only 28 grams lighter than a Zipp 404 and it is about 80 grams heavier than a set of Zipp 303's.

Unfortunately, they did not provide data for the Zipp 808 on a road bike so we cannot make similar comparisons between the Enve 6.7 and the Zipp 404 and 808 (The 6.7 seems to fall in between these two wheels in terms of depth). Based upon the data for the Trek Speed Concept 9.8, the drag on the Enve splits the difference between a Zipp 404 and 808.

So I would agree with you again, the wheels do not seem to be a real game changer in terms of aerodynamic drag. It seems that Enve is just getting even in this area with the companies producing the most aerodynamic wheels, namely Zipp and Hed.

It does seem, though, that the quality of the ENVE product has/is better than most of the other carbon rim manufacturers. I was at my LBS earlier today looking at an Enve 1.45 tubular rim up against a Zipp 303 tubular rim. The finish the Enve rim was so much better. The spoke holes are so clean on the Enve rims and the surface of the rim is so much nicer than many of their competitors. And the Enve rim can take a much higher spoke tension than most others, due to the co-molded spoke holes. Curious how the braking on Enve tubular rims compares to the competition? And does the finish quality matter at the end of the day? :noidea:

Hopefully they will continue their higher quality standards on their newest line of rims, and maybe this justifies the price premium or tips the scales in favor of selecting their rims over the competition. It would be even better if they were priced more competitively with Zipp (at around $2,300 retail) or Hed (at around $2,100 retail) than the roughly $3,000 that the Enve 6.7's have been projected to cost. Just my $ 0.02...

Quickdraw
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by Quickdraw

BrianAllan wrote:Quickdraw, Excel is selling the 240's below retail, so add ~$100 in to your wheelset price. You also forgot nipples : p

My suspicion is this posted $975 retail price is incorrect. But I have no basis for that opinion aside from my earlier posting. Basically a complete wheelset now costs $500 more as the 6.7 build over the current offerings. I don't know why they'd increase their markup on components, so again, I would attribute that extra $500 to rims. So $250 + 875 = $1125 per rim.


The price from Excel would establish what the hub can be purshased for in the open market by an end-consumer under non-liquidation conditions. It is a fair proxy for the price of the hubs. Competitve Cyclist is currently selling a DT Swiss 240s Road Rear Hub for $275, but I chose not to use this figure as it was a sale price. Even at $275, I doubt they are selling them at a loss. So assuming a cost of $329.95 for the hub seems more than fair. Also, retail is defined as "the sale of goods to ultimate consumers, usually in small quantities." This is not the same as m.s.r.p. Sellers are, more often than not, free to set their own retail prices, except where the manufacturer has excessive market power. I would not think DT Swiss would fall into that category. So, again, Excel's prices are a fair proxy for retail on the DT Swiss hubs.

And as for rims, Fairwheel sells the current Enve 1.45 rims for $750, as does Wheelbuilder.com. Fairwheel includes nipples in the price of their Enve rims, so the price of nipples is a non-issue. Excel Sports is a little more expensive at $780 for the Enve 1.45 rim. So I would say retail is about $750 for that rim.

Wheelbuilder.com sells a rim used in the Zipp 404 wheel (i.e. the Zipp 360 rim) for $755.

So at $975 for the Enve 6.7 rims, that is a ~$225 premium per rim over similar products. I doubt the market would stand a much higher price for the new rims. They would not be superior enough in performance to justify the price premium, and Enve has to recapture their development cost through sales.

So, I stand by my numbers. The price seems excessive, especially for the build component of the price.

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ergott
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by ergott

As stated above, the rims are available for custom builds. If you contact your favorite builder for a custom set you might be surprised.

I'm putting together my preorder now.

-Eric

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lancejohnson
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by lancejohnson

Just for comparison to the comparisons made above by Quickdraw about the aeroness of the Enve/Smart wheels - the 3.4 is basically the same as a Zipp 202 front and a 303 rear (rim depth wise), so ending up with aerodynamics between the 303 and 404 is pretty good in my book.

Continuing on the same vein, the 6.7 is like the 404 wheelset (which has a 58mm deep I believe) with a slightly deeper rear. Ending up between the 404 and 808 at the 60/70mm depth seems pretty solid to me again...

They seem to be loosing a bit on the weight-front - they have added significant mass over the prior rims they were making and the equivolent Zipp wheels in terms of depth. Keep in mind that probably close to 100g of the weight is the DT hub vs. the Zipp hub, but that still means each rim is maybe 25 to 50g more than the equivolent Zipp rim...

I'm still down to grab some though.
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Discoverspeed
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by Discoverspeed

DIRT BOY wrote:
Discoverspeed wrote:If $3K includes the DT-190C hubs, then it becomes very interesting! :lol:


No, that's with 240 hubs. The 190 set will run $3475 MSRP


Yes I know that $3K is with the DT240, that is why I preceded my sentence with an "If" and ended with a smiley - it's a hint to consider adding in the ceramic option (190-C) for the more performance seeking riders - a one-up on the Obermayers (which is non-ceramic 190-S rear). But thanks for providing the MSRP figure for the 190 set - may I ask is it the S (Steel) or C (Ceramic) bearing option? Personally I would bespoke the wheelset but like to see the drag figures for different hub/ spoke combinations - or are they negligible?
Last edited by Discoverspeed on Fri May 20, 2011 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ergott
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by ergott

Discoverspeed wrote:
DIRT BOY wrote:
Discoverspeed wrote:If $3K includes the DT-190C hubs, then it becomes very interesting! :lol:


No, that's with 240 hubs. The 190 set will run $3475 MSRP


Yes I know, that is why I preceded my sentence with an "If" and ended with a smiley - it's a hint to consider adding in the ceramic option (190-C) for the more performance seeking riders - a one-up on the Obermayers (which is non-ceramic 190-S rear). Personally I would bespoke the wheelset but like to see the drag figures for different hub/ spoke combinations - or are they negligible?


DT to Alchemy negligible aero difference. With custom you can get any bearings you want.

-Eric

by Weenie


BrianAllan
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by BrianAllan

Discoverspeed wrote:Yes I know that $3K is with the DT240, that is why I preceded my sentence with an "If" and ended with a smiley - it's a hint to consider adding in the ceramic option (190-C) for the more performance seeking riders - a one-up on the Obermayers (which is non-ceramic 190-S rear). But thanks for providing the MSRP figure for the 190 set - may I ask is it the S (Steel) or C (Ceramic) bearing option? Personally I would bespoke the wheelset but like to see the drag figures for different hub/ spoke combinations - or are they negligible?


Missread you :thumbup: . I agree, a 190 option is a solid reliable high-performance option.

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